Send a email to betmost support, after a cuple of days they replied and claimed he is not a bot.

Yes he is loosing, but winning on rakeback still since you can get good rakeback on iPoker

so the question is:

Does iPoker know about these bots and doesnt care or Ccnt they "prove" that a person is a bot?


Obviously some of these guys are persons to look into

the scream of silence is overwhelming

The guy called bot711 has been confirmed to be a real player (and a good one at that). There are various other accounts that have been listed in threads in the Internet Poker forum. The microstakes bots all have near-identical stats for VPIP/PRF/3bet and tend to break even or lose slightly in the long run, so they just earn a little via rakeback. Every now and again a bunch of them disappear, presumably as a result of a ban, but then another load appear and take their place.
Perhaps the most worrying thing is that there is a website where you can download an iPoker bot, and the site appears to have an affiliate account with William Hill poker. (When you install the bot, it automatically downloads the WH/iPoker client and signs you up for a deposit bonus!)
As far as I know, reps for William Hill have not made any comment on that particular issue.
See http://www.pokerq4.com/william-hill-poker-bot-scandal
There's also another rakeback site with affiliate links to a number of poker sites while also offering bots for download. See http://www.pokerq4.com/poker-affilia...poker-bot-site

Please link to a successful conviction...
Or even an attempted prosecution...
Under this alleged "UK Law"...
Or please stop posting your silly airchair law ramblings.

As a programming student and poker player i'd like to say something.

While i agree that there are a large % of bots on certain sites and in certain game types I think their impact is being massively blown out of proportion.

I'd say 95+% of them are low tech BE or losers overall.

Before you let your emotions run riot and post rants you should logically think about this topic. For example how many of you found it easy to become a winning player?

so if we use manual human players as a guideline for success how many of the total player pool rise to the top of their stakes? why is this number smaller than expected? because its a hard game to beat even with what could only be described as super computers inside our head.

So in essence in order for a bot to win a lot the programmer would have to be an extremely talented player themselves right?
Adding to this that gifted player would then have to re-beat the game from a programming point of view, imagine how hard that would be.
So in the end you have to look at 1) how hard poker is to beat. 2) how much harder it would be to beat using any existing programming method or language.

I'm sure there is a tiny % of geniuses out there that have succeeded to some degree but you will never find them.

Don't get me wrong if there ever came a stage when bots simply couldn't be beaten this would be a disaster for the game but it will never come to this. The technology simply doesn't exist

You dont have to be Tom Dwan to beat 25nl. These slightly winning or even break-even bots arent on some journey to the nosebleeds.

They use a different approach. They use volume, rb and multiple accounts to make profit. Single operators can play 10's of millions of hands per year. This does add up and is a parasite to the real poker community.

just my opinion, so yeah it could be wrong.

think this thread shows a lot of speculation. Most of which is unfounded or OTT imo

there is a reason most bots sit with shortstack of 20-30bb's. It is alot easier to program them around preflop and flop play then.

Obviusly its not debateable if its a problem that they beat the game because there are multiple examples about that. Just see the bot i linked, he is beating the game, but rake eats his profit. He proberly have a 50%+ rakeback deal and because of that profit. That is just 1 bot and its generating 10K in rakeback/year. Imagine the same person having 20 running.

no, just a good programmer. check the hands from the bots at nl1k, they play some very unhumanlike lines like bluffing with pair+cardremoval in spots where people in todays games very seldom bluff, ie when opponents usually call too much. the programmer probably wrote the code without really understanding what the output would look like before writing the code, not knowing how to play before writing code to mimic his own play.

math is all wrong

So your saying an avg player that can code magically turns into a NL1k reg/winner?

These are good examples of what i meant by speculation, these two points have no factual basis.

I would bet a lot of money that if we could ask a true pro botter they would confirm that it is infinitely harder to program a winning bot than to learn to play winning poker manually, again i admit I am also speculating here but am pretty confident it would prove true.

Lets assume you are correct about it being harder to write than to actually play (not agreeing or disagreeing here, maybe another thread), so that justifies it in your eyes?

Imo it doesnt matter if it is harder to code than actually playing, its still wrong.

No, please read all of my posts.. i actually state that bots who are unbeatable / unexploitable would indeed destroy the game of poker. you have totally missed my point.

Sorry I misunderstood. Still not sure why you are arguing that point.

This thread is about letting the pokersites understand that some players are not complacent with their current efforts at stopping botters. Not whether it is harder to code a bot or just play. Who cares.

Also not my point, my point is that it is being blown massively out of proportion. bots are not winning millions end of.. for the simple reason that they will never play good enough to do so.

reading this thread is comparable to reading a "poker is rigged" thread.. which will not get the attention you guys are looking for.

Yes there are poker bots out there, yes maybe a small percentage win a small amount.
No they don't win millions and outplay good human players. Yes if you think your desktop computer is better at poker than you you are liable to be angry about bots.

There are graphs in this very thread showing bots winning 2 millions. And that's just a couple of the groups that were caught.

It has already been proven that the bots ARE winning millions.

And also, you're right that it might be difficult for a losing player to code a winning bot. However, if you put 5 of them together to code it, it becomes way easier. I've known people who have "ok" or marginal poker results, but they also understand the game on a mathematical level better than almost anyone in the world.

There is a misconception out there that a break even player cannot possibly be great at poker... There are a lot of factors why someone might understand the game extremely well but still cannot achieve great results. Usually it comes down to their mental game and how they handle playing poker. These "unknown geniuses" are the most likely candidate to code the best bots out there because doing so eliminates every single leak that prevents them from crushing the games on their own.

DublinMeUp, I guarantee you can write a good bot without being a winning player. There has been enough research into the math behind poker, so it is not a given that the programmer behind the good bots has assistance from a good player. Of course, having a winning player to assist the programmer might make it easier.

Also, you don't understand the affect these bots are having on the poker economy. Bots don't need to be unbeatable by humans to destroy online poker. We have datamined hands of (the same) bots winning >1mil at 5/10 and below, and this is nowhere near all the good bot accounts out there.

Even if there is a tiny % of bot programmers who make good ones, you only need one. One bot farm can run 20+ computers with different accounts playing many hours and they will (read: are) constantly bleed the games dry. Given the current climate of the NL games, how much money do you think there is circulating at 5/10? Having 1 million+ sucked out is MASSIVE, it makes a noticeable difference to the games and it will only get worse as time goes on. Once 5/10 ceases to run, they will move down to 2/4 and 3/6, rinse and repeat etc.

Ok, not gonna try impose my opinion.. still believe my view is closer to reality but GL with it

bots on the ongame network are by far the most noticeable since the traffic has dropped off - I have personally emailed ongame and I know others have also have proof.
IMO sites like rk and hollywood actually don't care since they have been hit with the discounted essence rake - I think they actually are profiting from it. this is only IMO

I've tracked a number of suspected bots on the Microgaming network that match the stats and behaviors of the Ongame bots exactly. Sending an email of the research and suspected accounts Monday to MG security.

i never said that. i said a good programmer could, the avg player is not a good programmer.

I presume you've heard of the Polaris bot? It's not used online, but it can crush most pros heads-up. The bot uses math alone and detects patterns in its opponents' games, to make plays that have the highest EV. The programmers know how Polaris works, obviously. They cannot beat it, because humans make incorrect mathematical decisions. Computers that rely on math do not make mathematical mistakes. You can go on an on about the "supercomputer" that is the human brain. Polaris runs on a Macbook and would completely destroy you heads up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris_%28poker_bot%29

A bot with a lower spec than Polaris can still beat the game at low stakes, because it doesn't go on tilt, spite-call, mis-click or chase gutshots because "it had a feeling". Low-spec bots can definitely beat the average recreational player. All they have to do is follow the "short stack strategy" described on the PokerStrategy.com website; a strategy that has been described as "impossible to exploit".

Most sites overlook/ignore bots and allow them to operate to keep games full/running/active ,to maximize their rake and increase the # of players on the site etc..They do not care,they downplay and deny..
It's very easy to spot a bot, and if most sites were interested in their elimination, they would have been dinosaurs a long time ago.
Sites have the upper hand. All they need to do (if, they choose to)is to cold deck them out of business or, beat them a little every play...
Sites that continue to allow/condone their existence, do not have integrity and, should be boycotted.

Like so many sites,Poker Stars has the ability to identify bots and cold deck them or, confiscate their winnings+bankroll after every session , at least identify them as bots,when they sit at your table or, when you, join theirs.