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Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites!

11-04-2011 , 10:41 AM


Send a email to betmost support, after a cuple of days they replied and claimed he is not a bot.

Yes he is loosing, but winning on rakeback still since you can get good rakeback on iPoker
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote
11-04-2011 , 04:35 PM
so the question is:

Does iPoker know about these bots and doesnt care or Ccnt they "prove" that a person is a bot?


Obviously some of these guys are persons to look into
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote
11-04-2011 , 11:29 PM
the scream of silence is overwhelming
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote
11-05-2011 , 11:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chillypill
Does iPoker know about these bots and doesnt care or Ccnt they "prove" that a person is a bot?
Obviously some of these guys are persons to look into
The guy called bot711 has been confirmed to be a real player (and a good one at that). There are various other accounts that have been listed in threads in the Internet Poker forum. The microstakes bots all have near-identical stats for VPIP/PRF/3bet and tend to break even or lose slightly in the long run, so they just earn a little via rakeback. Every now and again a bunch of them disappear, presumably as a result of a ban, but then another load appear and take their place.
Perhaps the most worrying thing is that there is a website where you can download an iPoker bot, and the site appears to have an affiliate account with William Hill poker. (When you install the bot, it automatically downloads the WH/iPoker client and signs you up for a deposit bonus!)
As far as I know, reps for William Hill have not made any comment on that particular issue.
See http://www.pokerq4.com/william-hill-poker-bot-scandal
There's also another rakeback site with affiliate links to a number of poker sites while also offering bots for download. See http://www.pokerq4.com/poker-affilia...poker-bot-site
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote
11-05-2011 , 01:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas
The UK Act which makes bots and cheating a criminal act is not tied to a regulator it is the criminal law in the UK. If you create, sell, install or use a bot in the UK or against a UK based player you are breaking UK law.

The US/UK extradition law would apply if the maximum penalty were raised to two years and the US had a similar offence. the European Arrest Warrant could be used if the maximum penalty were 12 months or more (1 WEEK MORE).

There have been no UK prosecutions for online cheating or bot operation but the offence is on the statute books so if you want to sell or use bots in the UK or against UK players it is a fact that you are committing a criminal offence and this should be included in any EV calculation made by the cheater or supplier of the software. Time the US and others enacted similar laws IMHO.

In tackling bots as an issue then another avenue is open, players can and should pressurise the UK Gambling Commission to investigate and prosecute bot operators. They should also be pressurised to demand information from the sites re those banned for running bots as these sites have prima facie evidence of a criminal act in the UK, disclosure re crimes is not protected by privacy terms and conditions, the UK prosecutors can apply for and get court orders forcing disclosure even in places like the Isle of man or gibraltar.
Please link to a successful conviction...
Or even an attempted prosecution...
Under this alleged "UK Law"...
Or please stop posting your silly airchair law ramblings.
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote
11-05-2011 , 01:56 PM
As a programming student and poker player i'd like to say something.

While i agree that there are a large % of bots on certain sites and in certain game types I think their impact is being massively blown out of proportion.

I'd say 95+% of them are low tech BE or losers overall.

Before you let your emotions run riot and post rants you should logically think about this topic. For example how many of you found it easy to become a winning player?

so if we use manual human players as a guideline for success how many of the total player pool rise to the top of their stakes? why is this number smaller than expected? because its a hard game to beat even with what could only be described as super computers inside our head.

So in essence in order for a bot to win a lot the programmer would have to be an extremely talented player themselves right?
Adding to this that gifted player would then have to re-beat the game from a programming point of view, imagine how hard that would be.
So in the end you have to look at 1) how hard poker is to beat. 2) how much harder it would be to beat using any existing programming method or language.

I'm sure there is a tiny % of geniuses out there that have succeeded to some degree but you will never find them.

Don't get me wrong if there ever came a stage when bots simply couldn't be beaten this would be a disaster for the game but it will never come to this. The technology simply doesn't exist
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote
11-05-2011 , 02:07 PM
You dont have to be Tom Dwan to beat 25nl. These slightly winning or even break-even bots arent on some journey to the nosebleeds.

They use a different approach. They use volume, rb and multiple accounts to make profit. Single operators can play 10's of millions of hands per year. This does add up and is a parasite to the real poker community.
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote
11-05-2011 , 02:23 PM
just my opinion, so yeah it could be wrong.

think this thread shows a lot of speculation. Most of which is unfounded or OTT imo
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote
11-05-2011 , 05:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DublinMeUp
As a programming student and poker player i'd like to say something.

While i agree that there are a large % of bots on certain sites and in certain game types I think their impact is being massively blown out of proportion.

I'd say 95+% of them are low tech BE or losers overall.

Before you let your emotions run riot and post rants you should logically think about this topic. For example how many of you found it easy to become a winning player?

so if we use manual human players as a guideline for success how many of the total player pool rise to the top of their stakes? why is this number smaller than expected? because its a hard game to beat even with what could only be described as super computers inside our head.

So in essence in order for a bot to win a lot the programmer would have to be an extremely talented player themselves right?
Adding to this that gifted player would then have to re-beat the game from a programming point of view, imagine how hard that would be.
So in the end you have to look at 1) how hard poker is to beat. 2) how much harder it would be to beat using any existing programming method or language.

I'm sure there is a tiny % of geniuses out there that have succeeded to some degree but you will never find them.

Don't get me wrong if there ever came a stage when bots simply couldn't be beaten this would be a disaster for the game but it will never come to this. The technology simply doesn't exist
there is a reason most bots sit with shortstack of 20-30bb's. It is alot easier to program them around preflop and flop play then.

Obviusly its not debateable if its a problem that they beat the game because there are multiple examples about that. Just see the bot i linked, he is beating the game, but rake eats his profit. He proberly have a 50%+ rakeback deal and because of that profit. That is just 1 bot and its generating 10K in rakeback/year. Imagine the same person having 20 running.
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote
11-05-2011 , 06:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DublinMeUp
So in essence in order for a bot to win a lot the programmer would have to be an extremely talented player themselves right?
no, just a good programmer. check the hands from the bots at nl1k, they play some very unhumanlike lines like bluffing with pair+cardremoval in spots where people in todays games very seldom bluff, ie when opponents usually call too much. the programmer probably wrote the code without really understanding what the output would look like before writing the code, not knowing how to play before writing code to mimic his own play.
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote
11-05-2011 , 06:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chillypill
there is a reason most bots sit with shortstack of 20-30bb's. It is alot easier to program them around preflop and flop play then.

Obviusly its not debateable if its a problem that they beat the game because there are multiple examples about that. Just see the bot i linked, he is beating the game, but rake eats his profit. He proberly have a 50%+ rakeback deal and because of that profit. That is just 1 bot and its generating 10K in rakeback/year. Imagine the same person having 20 running.
math is all wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by roblin
no, just a good programmer. check the hands from the bots at nl1k, they play some very unhumanlike lines like bluffing with pair+cardremoval in spots where people in todays games very seldom bluff, ie when opponents usually call too much. the programmer probably wrote the code without really understanding what the output would look like before writing the code, not knowing how to play before writing code to mimic his own play.
So your saying an avg player that can code magically turns into a NL1k reg/winner?

These are good examples of what i meant by speculation, these two points have no factual basis.

I would bet a lot of money that if we could ask a true pro botter they would confirm that it is infinitely harder to program a winning bot than to learn to play winning poker manually, again i admit I am also speculating here but am pretty confident it would prove true.
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote
11-05-2011 , 07:44 PM
Lets assume you are correct about it being harder to write than to actually play (not agreeing or disagreeing here, maybe another thread), so that justifies it in your eyes?

Imo it doesnt matter if it is harder to code than actually playing, its still wrong.
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote
11-05-2011 , 08:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoDeViLs
Lets assume you are correct about it being harder to write than to actually play (not agreeing or disagreeing here, maybe another thread), so that justifies it in your eyes?

Imo it doesnt matter if it is harder to code than actually playing, its still wrong.
No, please read all of my posts.. i actually state that bots who are unbeatable / unexploitable would indeed destroy the game of poker. you have totally missed my point.
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote
11-05-2011 , 08:18 PM
Sorry I misunderstood. Still not sure why you are arguing that point.

This thread is about letting the pokersites understand that some players are not complacent with their current efforts at stopping botters. Not whether it is harder to code a bot or just play. Who cares.
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote
11-05-2011 , 08:27 PM
Also not my point, my point is that it is being blown massively out of proportion. bots are not winning millions end of.. for the simple reason that they will never play good enough to do so.

reading this thread is comparable to reading a "poker is rigged" thread.. which will not get the attention you guys are looking for.

Yes there are poker bots out there, yes maybe a small percentage win a small amount.
No they don't win millions and outplay good human players. Yes if you think your desktop computer is better at poker than you you are liable to be angry about bots.
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote
11-05-2011 , 08:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DublinMeUp
Also not my point, my point is that it is being blown massively out of proportion. bots are not winning millions end of.. for the simple reason that they will never play good enough to do so.
There are graphs in this very thread showing bots winning 2 millions. And that's just a couple of the groups that were caught.
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote
11-05-2011 , 08:51 PM
It has already been proven that the bots ARE winning millions.

And also, you're right that it might be difficult for a losing player to code a winning bot. However, if you put 5 of them together to code it, it becomes way easier. I've known people who have "ok" or marginal poker results, but they also understand the game on a mathematical level better than almost anyone in the world.

There is a misconception out there that a break even player cannot possibly be great at poker... There are a lot of factors why someone might understand the game extremely well but still cannot achieve great results. Usually it comes down to their mental game and how they handle playing poker. These "unknown geniuses" are the most likely candidate to code the best bots out there because doing so eliminates every single leak that prevents them from crushing the games on their own.
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote
11-05-2011 , 08:54 PM
DublinMeUp, I guarantee you can write a good bot without being a winning player. There has been enough research into the math behind poker, so it is not a given that the programmer behind the good bots has assistance from a good player. Of course, having a winning player to assist the programmer might make it easier.

Also, you don't understand the affect these bots are having on the poker economy. Bots don't need to be unbeatable by humans to destroy online poker. We have datamined hands of (the same) bots winning >1mil at 5/10 and below, and this is nowhere near all the good bot accounts out there.

Even if there is a tiny % of bot programmers who make good ones, you only need one. One bot farm can run 20+ computers with different accounts playing many hours and they will (read: are) constantly bleed the games dry. Given the current climate of the NL games, how much money do you think there is circulating at 5/10? Having 1 million+ sucked out is MASSIVE, it makes a noticeable difference to the games and it will only get worse as time goes on. Once 5/10 ceases to run, they will move down to 2/4 and 3/6, rinse and repeat etc.
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote
11-05-2011 , 10:44 PM
Ok, not gonna try impose my opinion.. still believe my view is closer to reality but GL with it
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote
11-05-2011 , 11:28 PM
bots on the ongame network are by far the most noticeable since the traffic has dropped off - I have personally emailed ongame and I know others have also have proof.
IMO sites like rk and hollywood actually don't care since they have been hit with the discounted essence rake - I think they actually are profiting from it. this is only IMO
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote
11-06-2011 , 12:49 AM
I've tracked a number of suspected bots on the Microgaming network that match the stats and behaviors of the Ongame bots exactly. Sending an email of the research and suspected accounts Monday to MG security.
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote
11-06-2011 , 04:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DublinMeUp
So your saying an avg player that can code magically turns into a NL1k reg/winner?
i never said that. i said a good programmer could, the avg player is not a good programmer.
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote
11-06-2011 , 09:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DublinMeUp
I would bet a lot of money that if we could ask a true pro botter they would confirm that it is infinitely harder to program a winning bot than to learn to play winning poker manually, again i admit I am also speculating here but am pretty confident it would prove true.
I presume you've heard of the Polaris bot? It's not used online, but it can crush most pros heads-up. The bot uses math alone and detects patterns in its opponents' games, to make plays that have the highest EV. The programmers know how Polaris works, obviously. They cannot beat it, because humans make incorrect mathematical decisions. Computers that rely on math do not make mathematical mistakes. You can go on an on about the "supercomputer" that is the human brain. Polaris runs on a Macbook and would completely destroy you heads up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris_%28poker_bot%29

A bot with a lower spec than Polaris can still beat the game at low stakes, because it doesn't go on tilt, spite-call, mis-click or chase gutshots because "it had a feeling". Low-spec bots can definitely beat the average recreational player. All they have to do is follow the "short stack strategy" described on the PokerStrategy.com website; a strategy that has been described as "impossible to exploit".
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote
11-06-2011 , 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stake Monster
Poker bots are becoming an increasingly huge threat to the online poker industry. What use to be a bunch of bots grinding 5NL on 100 tables for rakeback has now become a bunch of bots grinding midstakes and crushing the games.

These bots are becoming better and better each and every day. They will eventually become completely unexploitable by anyone in any game at any time (this is a fact and here is not the time to explain why in detail). They never tilt, never take breaks and never gamble. They are programmed to play as unexploitable as possible and can adjust to their opponents. To which level they are able to do this, no one really knows. But we do know that they took ongame for AT LEAST 500k+ this year alone. There have been talks about bot rings on iPoker for a long time as well. The money taken out by bots over the last year could easily be over 1-2 million dollars.

With the increasingly difficult environment of online poker, it is of paramount importance that the sites crack down as hard as possible on not only detecting bots, but also on cracking down on the people using them. Without a serious series of actions vs these botters, it won't be long before online poker is rendered unplayable. These bots are playing all forms of poker, even heads-up. They suck money out of everyone in the poker industry, from top to bottom. From the 2NL grinders to the high stakes players, from the affiliates to the poker training sites.

Action needs to be taken industry-wide and poker sites need to collaborate together on tackling the issue. Everyone would gain by having the major players (PokerStars, Party, Ongame, iPoker, Merge) work together on this issue. Sharing of information and technology, and discussions need to take place between sites to help speed up the process and also increase the potential strength of any detection methods. The botters are already working together and so should we.

Poker has been through a lot this year, but there is not a single threat bigger to online poker than bots. It is the one thing that could kill the games completely and not just for one country or two, but for the whole world. Poker sites need to be pressured into taking every single step possible to help combat this issue. This includes poker sites working together as a group. Without this, they are NOT looking for our overall interest but instead their own personal gains and profit margins.

Here are some suggestions to the poker sites:
- The creation of a "defense committee" to oversee this process. This committee would bring together each site's security teams/experts so that they can share information between them and come up with solutions together. This committee would be the hub for all matters relating to bots and how to combat them. Information should obviously be kept to a select few from each networks as knowledge on potential detection methods, etc should be kept strictly confidential.

- A shared black list should be established to ban botters on every single poker site. Bans on accounts using bots should extend to the owner's immediate family as well, to avoid easy ways around a ban.

- I would also suggest potential legal action against websites/individuals who share information on how to create or improve these bots. I am not sure if using bots is actually illegal, but this could be something to look into. They are in fact cheating and I don't see how it is any different than cheating at sports or in casinos. Obviously, regulation industry-wide would probably help in this matter.

Take action!
If you agree with me and think that they should collaborate on the issue of bots, please take a minute to email them to let them know.Tell them you would like to play in a bot-free environment and still be able to enjoy online poker in the near future. Tell them also that you will NOT play on their website if they do not do everything in their power to stop bots. By not collaborating together they are far from doing so.


Cookie-cutter lazy-mail for your copy-pasting enjoyment:
Spoiler:
Hi,

Poker bots are becoming a serious issue and threaten the viability of the online poker industry-wide. These bots are better than ever before and teams of really really smart people are working together in an effort to improve them even further. Poker sites need to take this very seriously and should work together to combat this issue as effectively and quickly as possible.

For online poker's future and for the benefit of everyone who is involved in this industry, I urge you to please collaborate with other networks/poker sites in developing ways to make poker bots more difficult to create and less effective. If you do not collaborate then you are not doing everything in your power to stop this epidemic.

A discussion on TwoPlusTwo's forums is ongoing about this issue with suggestions and ideas from other players: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...-know-1116939/.

Thank you for reading,
<your name>


Poker sites/networks emails:

Some threads of interest:
-Alarming news about botting on Ongame
-Official strategize against bot epidemic
-iPoker skin confirmed used of bots?
-Possible collusion/softplaying/botting at 1knl on iPoker
Most sites overlook/ignore bots and allow them to operate to keep games full/running/active ,to maximize their rake and increase the # of players on the site etc..They do not care,they downplay and deny..
It's very easy to spot a bot, and if most sites were interested in their elimination, they would have been dinosaurs a long time ago.
Sites have the upper hand. All they need to do (if, they choose to)is to cold deck them out of business or, beat them a little every play...
Sites that continue to allow/condone their existence, do not have integrity and, should be boycotted.
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote
11-06-2011 , 04:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klakteuh
Yeah I think Stars does this already a bit.

Very good thread StakeMonster, this issue is really BIG and it's not getting enough attention imo.
Like so many sites,Poker Stars has the ability to identify bots and cold deck them or, confiscate their winnings+bankroll after every session , at least identify them as bots,when they sit at your table or, when you, join theirs.
Action vs poker bots: Networks should work together to combat them. Please email the sites! Quote

      
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