i had used 2020's numbers(didnt realize that 2021 would already be complete since he was citing a random regular season meet), which since the competition didnt happen due to covid, they compiled everyone's best performance from their conference championship, so the times were apparently faster.

Would like to point out that my reference to the Roger Maris controversy where he needed a 162 game season to beat Babe Ruth's record in a 154 game season, would have not existed if the season had 180 games (or 156 games, or if he had taken steroids). Or that vaccine mandate controversies wouldn't exist if 5% (or .02%) of the unvaccinated population died from Covid. Same goes for very many controversies where people argue without realizing that their points are reasonable only because the subject happened to involve a mathematical sweetspot. The subject of this thread is probably another example.

That is…..actually a decent point! Crucially, it depends on the situation whether you are in that sweet spot or not. Among adults on the right tail of the bell curve, the dominance of adult biologically male people over adult biologically female is the 180 game season or the 5% death rate, which is why I don’t think anyone ITT has argued for unfettered trans inclusion in top level adult sport. But I think you are right in other contexts, particularly among kids, particularly when dealing with a broader swath of the distributions, then yes it is much closer to a mathematical sweet spot which is why the debate exists.

The transgender law center, an advocacy group, lays out the increasing challenges trans people are having in America due in part to pushing transwomen in sport. They speak about the successes in other areas of the world where a more behind the scenes approach is taken. Sport being so visible and so vital to so many coupled with trans activists saying 'cis women just need to stop complaining and get better', is not a path to success when such a fundamental unfairness is present.

This has been one of my main issues raised here. You have elements of the more extreme fringe on the left who want this to be a fight and who want to 'out' the 'bad people' more than they want progress for trans people.

If the more extreme trans activists continue to be seen as voice of this in America I believe all trans people will suffer. Progress in other areas that could be made will be codified against them in law as sweeping over-reactions and push back are formed.

One by one most of the things I positioned and have said in this thread are being validated by pieces like below. How success in this area is often done quietly, and outside the media (as my gay friend in Edmonton example who mediates this stuff got criticized for on this forum) and how more reasonable incremental accommodations should be approached.

Instead we have people on this forum who equate any such measured and careful approach with 'keeping Rosa Parks in the back of the bus'. They state anything short of forcing even the most vulnerable black kid to the front of the bus and in to every swimming pool as 'supporting continued racism' and they make no concession for the blow back and danger that child would face. 'Push them in and out the bad people who would attack them' is all they care about. Sad.

No. You end segregation but you still take a measured approach both to implementing and pushing your rights, especially in the most challenging areas (deep south) and don't let activists tell you that you are a wrong with that approach.

Those who want real progress understand that a compromising approach can have more success than the blunt hammer approach. Those who don't care as much about real progress as they do the fight and outing 'bad guys' want to push the maximum conflict approach only.








Since is seems some here get offended by cliff note slides of videos even when the original video link is provided and they can watch the long version, I have put the cliff note slides in the spoilers. For those who appreciate not clicking links and cliffs, see below.

wat. Like sure, I'm tempted to broadly agree with you that the small subset of trans activists (I believe zero ITT) who push for trans inclusion at every level of competitive sport create more pushback against trans people. Fine. Sure. Reasonable. But how you jumped from that to....uh.....this.....I can't even imagine.

I guess the only thing to do is ask you to quote someone, anyone, saying something, anything, even remotely similar to what you just suggested here.

Anyone else think it's bullshit that Yale is allowing this man to swim on the women's team? It's complete bullshit!

My favorite transgender swimmer Lia Thomas put an absolutely dominant performance in for Penn vs Yale and Dartmouth. Lia won the 200 and 500 yard freestyle races. She finished 5th in the 100 freestyle but she should have finished 4th because the person that won the event is a ****ing dude! The guy's name is Izsac Henig, and he identifies as a male, and he's already had his breasts removed, so he's a ****ing dude. Typical male chauvinist pig knows he has a better chance to win the women's event so he competed in a female race even though he's a ****ing dude. This is a travesty and it's making a mockery of everything we have worked so hard for.

The cis swimmers should just work harder next time.

The cis swimmers ONLY need to inject some testosterone to make it fair!

DC I must tell u something. Lol. Well played. With the bolded you threw me off. F man u got me with this. I scanned the articles and was cussing wtf for at least 5 minutes until I figured out what exactly is going on. Results: both are trans swimmers and dominating.

Oh well. That's the end of women's sports I guess. Poor women. And by who they get f again? Men. And it's Isaac! Why is the swimmer's name isaac still? How is that possible?

It's not the same thing at all. Lia is a trans WOMAN. Iszac is a trans MAN. Under no circumstances should a MAN be competing against women. The only reason he is doing so is because he knows he has a competitive advantage against women. However, he fully admits to being a dude!

Heh? Now I don't understand it. Wtf is going on?
They are both swimming in the women field against each other. Both are trans! I dont understand a **** again!

Ok hold your horses. I've only seen a picture of lia. She is a trans women. Her face looks like a dude still, if you think away the hair. So she used to be a guy right?
And Isaac? What was he/she originally? A woman? Are is this? That doesn't make any sense again! Agagagagagaa I'm ticking out

If you don't understand at this point, I don't know what to tell you. I'm not a professor of Gender Studies but I'll try to explain it as simplistically as possible.

Lia = a woman. A woman is supposed to compete against other women.
Iszac = a man. A man is supposed to compete against other men.

Iszac is not competing against men. He is competing against women.

This is not ok.

I don't know what you are talking about "originally." WTF does that have to do with anything?

Sorry u lost me there for a sec. So if both original sexes were male that would make it ermm somewhat fair imo. Is that the case?

I don't know why you keep harping on "original." That's irrelevant. Women compete against women and men compete against men. That's how it works. This is competitive swimming not a sit-n-go poker tournament.

Alright so now I got it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost....zac-henig/amp/

So Isaac used to be a woman, transitioned or is in the state and is now back swimming in the ladies event. Yeah wtf is up with this? She is getting testosterone im assuming. That would give her and edge.

Lia used to be a men and is now swimming with the ladies.

Alright im out. good night. Lmao
Thanks for sharing, that is indeed a bit crazy!!

Iszac was not taking testosterone and the only performance enhancing he did was cut off his breasts. That's not the point. The point is that a man should not be competing in a women's event. The only reason he did is because he felt he had an edge.

Do you believe that? Yale and tits chopped off and no testos.? Here are some pictures. Looks pretty juiced up to me but I could be wrong.

If the only edge he has was chopped off breast, I wouldn't have a problem with it, the hydrodynamic are insignificant imo. The male name would bother be more.
Many more apparently have a problem with the testosterone edge of Lia Thomas.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dai...o-seconds.html

But yeah to each their own. I don't know wtf they are doing there...

He certainly may be cheating. Male chauvinists will do anything to get ahead so it doesn't surprise me. However, it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Whether he's juicing or not, he shouldn't be competing against women because HE is a MAN.

Lia should (and does) compete against women because she is a woman. She could probably kick men's asses in swimming too but she doesn't because she's a WOMAN.

This Iszac jerk needs to check his privilege and stay in his lane.

remember, trans kids have to go to school with edgy cool kids like dream crusher.

Nobody has to go to school with me.

it is not at all irrelevant and no one in the medical or scientific community is saying it is irrelevant.

There are ongoing discussions on how to handle and best integrate the very issues he says are irrelevant because they are quite relevant.

Those are just the facts an the 'original' biological sex, and not the declared gender is the reason why it matters. That has to be considered and balanced versus the steps taken and when, to transition in a way that seeks fairness, if that is available. Most times it will not be, at least with Male to Female transition in competitive sport.

I'm 64 years old. If I murder somebody, maybe I could "self-identify" as a 12-year-old boy and be treated ad such by the "Justice" System.

This "self-identify" narrative certainly should be applicable to far more than gender identity.

Do you think that’s at all analogous to what transgender people are doing?