My edit (removing almost 1000 words) was the result of your personal attack, uke's reply did not incl a personal attack

What percentage of cis men/women would transition if the procedure was fairly simple, reversing the procedure was only slightly more difficult, their attractiveness as the opposite sex was about the same as pre transition, and the transition was close enough to perfect, that strangers would never know of their past lives if they weren't told? (Please do not include those who would do it for purely economic reasons.)

Since none of the stated conditions could ever possibly be met, there's no point asking. It's like asking how many people would migrate to another planet if you could get there in five days' travel. Also you've gone and used the term 'cis', which is intellectually bankrupt, ideologically deplorable and strongly resisted by anyone with anything resembling a mind or a conscience.

That is the point going over your head.

Sure you can say the 'right' CAN choose to do better, and thus the poking should not matter.

I am not debating that.

BUT WE KNOW the right will not do better once poked. And if we know that it is not then enough to say 'but they COULD do better so do not hold us to account for poking them'.

No, be smarter, recognize the beast you are dealing with on the other side, and don't just act because you can and they SHOULD NOT do what they do in reply and instead take a pragmatic that avoids poking them.

If I tell your small group 'not to confront that guy over there face to face, no matter how wrong he is, as he will punch one of you in the face, because he is a mean, nasty person', and you choose to walk over and uke steps out of your group and gets right in his face and he ends up punching one of you in the face, YES, it is his fault and he should not have punched someone.

But that is not the end of the story as uke would have us believe in demanding we only focus on the 'bad guy who punched someone'. He would push that any discussion of you ignoring the very clear and dangerous bad guy should not be done and instead 'lets all just talk about the guy who punched someone'.

My goal is to try and avoid escalating everything and creating that victim who is now punched as a result of the 'bad person' punching him in reaction to uke getting in his face. uke is fine with it (or better yet just ignores it) as it gives him an even better virtue signalling opportunity as he cries out 'see how terrible he is' 'look at what he has done'.

it is a very common tactic we see all the time by the far. They are right in identifying the 'bad actor' but the attempt to eliminate discussion of any role they have in the process they try to make off limits.

Asked and answered many times so everyone can see uke is just trolling here as he always does.

I can't really discern what you are asking but is it 'if everyone could be gender fluid in an easy way back and forth and upon transition maintained whatever 'looks status' they perceive themselves to have... how many people who are cis and would otherwise not transition, suddenly be more open to it?

If that is your question I would suggest none. I don't think people decide not to transition out of fear of losing 'looks status' nor the difficulties in the process.

Now on the other hand, there may well be some people who are undeclared trans (meaning in their heart and mind they consider themselves trans but are keeping it a secret) who for certain reasons have not transitioned yet, who might then transition with your process easing that more.


Similar to more and more gay people 'coming out' as barriers were removed and societal stigma diminished, I suspect you will see a similar parellel amongst trans persons. Especially the stigma being lowered. Logic tells us that will be case.

Thus why I say, it is myopic and dangerous to only considers questions around trans challenges today and to answer them with 'yes there may be some harm to others by this decision but the numbers are small so lets do it anyway' while ignoring the numbers have been and will continue to go up. So a good and thoughtful approach is to address the issue based on harm or not, and not the numbers harmed.

I'm not trolling. I'm genuinely curious what examples you have of the left "crushing the victims" of trans kids in school. I've provided many clear examples of this from the right. If you think the left has crushed these victims too, surely you can post one simple, clear example of this happening? You've responded, it is true, with long essays about poking bears and (once again) talking about fake trans people in prison (while ignoring that only 15 trans women out of 4890 are even houses in women's facilities). But you haven't provided an example. If you are unable to provide such an example I'm happy to take yet another big W and move on.

I'm more interested in the inflection point of the logistic curve than the asymptote.

I gave you the examples many times.

When actors on the far left like you uke, refuse to even consider and always push back against more pragmatic solutions to issues such as trans in sports, or cis male predator conmen posting as trans to get into female prison populations, and other areas, that is what the far right uses to rile up their base, but more than that for propaganda to get the more center right onside to support or not stop these types of legislation.

Once that beast is awakened and taken control of the voting/power structures they do not just stop with sport (as we currently see them forcing more compromises and will continue to see more) and they don't just stop at reasonable compromise positions. Instead we end up seeing that power they have now grabbed and going to a far right extreme and into other areas.

You will not see that beast (right) stop now it is politically active.

There is a very straight line between trans women in sport and how the increase in better and more relevant IN PRIME trans female athletes were destroying any playing field they entered into, and the clear view that numbers would only increase as would the skill levels of the trans women and what we now see as the broader backlash against all trans and even the wider LGBTQ+ community.

You uke and those on the far left like you, have your favorite thing, which is the max number of 'bad people' to point at 'doing the worst things', It is a massive canvas to virtue signal against as everyday you can cry out 'look at the new terrible thing they did today'!!!

And while you do, you can refuse to consider that, as was discussed with ganstaman, it does not ONLY matter that 'yes they are the bad people', as that does not then give you a pass for poking them and giving them what they need (your extremism) to rile up and awaken not just their base but a much bigger base than they otherwise would not get.



(now this is where you again say I have not addressed this question and you are still waiting)

Because you see, it’s the left’s fault when the right passes anti-trans bills because right wingers have no agency. If the left would stop pushing aggressively for civil rights, conservatives would surely stop being dickholes.

This obsession with fake trans people and the constant attempts to recentre the conversation about them is so ****ing weird. I asked for evidence that the left was crushing LGBT kids in schools and your response is to pivot to this fake trans people in prison bit...again?

It isn't the left's fault that the right uses fake trans people as a scapegoat bait-and-switch to be passing laws that harm trans people. That is the right's fault. And it is YOUR fault that you are also constantly pushing the conversation and rhetoric to be focused - of all trans issues - on the fake trans bit, just like the right-wingers you claim you disagree with.

Ultimately your whole bit about how it is the fault of the left that the right is so shitty is just a bad take. It is this bizarre combination of victim blaming and tone policing where if ever someone on the left - real or imagined - steps over your self-proclaimed lines of allowable advocacy, then they are to be blamed as "crushing the victims" that the laws of the right pass. Utterly sickening.

Maybe it is better to try and answer by percentages. Let's take the example of the new Florida guidelines against recommending "social transition" where your name, pronouns and dress are that of your gender. This is an utterly reprehensible recommendation. What percentage is this the right's fault, and what percentage is this the left's fault? 50:50?

uke as always the point goes over your head.

When there is any attempt to reasonably intervene in cases that are exposed of what appears to be a cis male sex abuser abusing the process to get into a female prison to rape even more women, you and those like you scream that it is not to be talked about or addressed and you say the reason is you fear that anything that addresses that issue to reduce the problem may be used to somehow deny trans women access to the jail.

So you want the abuse by the cis male sex abuser ignored for what you believe the greater good, of trans inclusion without risk of getting caught up.

What I am telling you is that as you argue ferociously to prevent even talk of compromise measures, that is what triggers the far right (rightly) but they use that to stir up the center and then act and impose rules NOT JUST to keep the cis male abuser out but also ALL trans women out. And then it blows over to kids in other areas.

So yes you and Trolly can keep saying 'But those are horrible Righties doing that... LOOK AT THEM ONLY' but that is folly. The far left (you) and your role should absolutely be considered too.

The people genuinely considered about the victims and who do not just take pleasure from a virtue signaling win because they now have more 'bad people' to point at, need to speak up too.

Well what is your answer then? You first??

You and I surprisingly agree more than you might think: I agree the rhetoric we use and the conversations we have DO influence the laws that get passed that harm LGBT kids, and that we should pay careful attention to our rhetoric to make sure it doesn't "blow over" to harming trans kids. Where we disagree is which kinds of rhetoric and conversations are primarily responsible for the environment where harmful anti-LGBT laws are being regularly passed.

My contention is that when the conversations we have are centered around real or fake trans people are causing harm, this type of environment in conducive for such harmful laws. In contrast, if the conversations are centered around harm being done where LGBT are the victims, this type of environment is conducive for laws that support LGBT people.

This is the precise reason I criticize YOU for constantly obsessing over fake trans people in prisons, schools, spas, etc. YOU are following exactly that right wing rhetorical strategy where every conversation about trans issues is bogged down in this extremely negative caricatures of the dangers of trans people. YOU are pushing rhetoric that makes it easier to pass anti-LGBT laws. You can blame the left - or me, if you prefer - but the simple reality is the person who brings up fake trans people over and over and over again is YOU.

In contrast, you put a lot of emphasis on pretty vague ideas that "the left" is driving these conversations. This is false. Firstly, I believe that the overwhelming majority of the left's advocacy on LGBT rights is morally correct and important and centered on actually helping trans people. All of this is largely ignored by the right, to focus on a narrow handful of wedge issues. Secondly, within those handful of wedge issues, the overwhelming majority of the left is not making the outrageous claims you think are driving the conversation. For example, it is not an orthodox position of the left - nor anyone ITT - that biologically male prisoners should be able to waltz into female prisons with carte blanch. However, the right will either purely make up the positions of the left (as you have done to me ITT repeatedly) or else, hyper focus on the rarest of cases on twitter to attack those. That is, the outrage against extreme left positions is largely something that is manufactured as part of the right's culture war against LGBT through either selection or fabrication.

Rhetoric does matter. It does leave to harmed LGBT children. But you massively exaggerate the role the left plays in centering the conversation on these negative issues regarding trans people while ignoring that you in fact are consistently centering the conversation on these issues.

I think the moral responsibility, the proximate cause, and the overwhelming driving force of anti-LGBT laws in the US all are dominantly due to the right. Anything less than 95% the fault of the right is outrageous.

Given full autocratic power I think the world you would create would look no different than the world i would create. One where people were free to live their lives as they want and as long as they are doing no harm to others they would face no judgment because everyone else just would NGAF as they instead focused on living their own best life. The consistent common goal would be to make the planet the best it could be to the benefit of all.


Where we differ is in how to get people on side that.

I see you as the constant attacker and provocateur. Perhaps you think it a moral duty to attack bad actors. Perhaps you think you are defending and helping the weaker. Those are fine reasons to act.

But i see it differently, in too many of these culture war issues. I believe they can be enflamed from prior positions of them 'getting better' into culture war issues that become battles that now will either be lost or won, and when lost the cost is great for those very groups you proport to be defending. I think you, like much of the rabid left, cannot see beyond the fight, because ideological you know you are right (you are) and therefore you want to fight and win. What I think is that you (the rabid left) do not pay enough attention to the cost when you lose.

The pragmatist in me, does not want any fight picked that we will almost certainly lose and then more victims will be created.

The rabid left dismisses the pragmatist view, instead always just resorting to the same defense "but... but... who is doing all the killing now (winning) in his war. It is not us it is the bad people (right) over there', and never...NEVER will they consider that not only were they a participant in the war but they went out poking around, trying to stir up the war, because they feel being 'right' is reason enough.



This does not address the question in the way I would and again only speaks to what i am referencing above.

I'll explain it in what I call 'The Parable of uke'


And the parabol ends with uke's tribe destroyed, all the victim of 'yes', the bad people in those murderous tribe and no cautionary tale for others as uke has successful made sure people only focus on the ones committing the 'bad' acts and never look at the provocations that proceed it.

The end.


(oh on the provocation side I think leftist and right activists are 80% responsible, but on the actions/reactions side I think right actors are 90% responsible)

In the 1990s in pride parades around the country the slogan was "We're here, we're queer, get used to it". Thirty years later, it is particularly jarring to see this outlandish 'parable' where LGBT people should just quietly sneak around hoping conservatives don't "become aware" of them otherwise they will be murdered. Cuepee, this parable of yours is ****ing insane.

In this war against LGBT people, you are weaponizing victim blaming. Of course LGBT people know they are "participants" in the war - indeed, they are the victims! Trying to tone police them, to suggest they should not stand up for what is right and call out people who are in the wrong because otherwise their oppressors will oppress them even more is just victim blaming at its worst.

What is particularly sick about this is the entire narrative is a fiction. The right oppressing LGBT people isn't some "overreaction" to "provocations" by LGBT people. Blaming them for their own oppression is outrageous.

And as the radical left do, you define anything including purposely going out and provoking, not being done, as silence, which is just perfect for all to understand.

It is absolutely far leftist ideology that to not go poke, is to be complicit silent when that is not the case.

And the parable is perfectly apt.

The entirety of your position and constant appeal to me is to point at one thing, and ONE THING ONLY, which is to ask 'who is responsible for all this horrid legislation'.

YEs uke, the tribe doing the killing is responsible for the killing. that is a true point. Does that mean we should ignore your role in marching your tribe right up to them?

You would be right to say 'we did nothing wrong walking right (poking) up to them'. You would be right to say 'just because we walked up to them does not give them a right to kill us'.

And as you see all your dead tribe mates, you are right to make sure people know who the 'bad people' were who killed them.

All of that is true and that is ALWAYS the only side of the discussion you try to discuss. Meanwhile you march the last of the survivors off to the next poke because you REFUSE to consider your role.

I can't believe what I just read.

After reading that, I'm done here for the day. Have a great weekend, y'all!

Old norm: Public bathrooms divided by sex.
Uke s position: People can choose their gender and their bathroom.

Old norm: Youth (all) sports are divided by sex and age, sometimes weight classes too.
Uke's position: Post puberty, transgender athletes should be able to choose their gender and play on that gender's team.

Hand waves away any concern about injury, domination of girls sports by the transathletes. When transathlete dominates and wins NCAA swimming national event, handwaves the unfairness issues of the 15,000 college swimmers.

Old norm: pronouns determined by rules of English language.
Uke's postition: you choose your pronouns based on your sexuality.

Old norm: drivers license states your gender
Uke's position: it's good that states are allowing a transgender to choose their gender.

Hand waves away any concern that this could lead to issues with incarceration.

Old norm: legislatures pass laws that reflect the will of the majority, tempered by the Constitutional rights of the individual.
Uke's position: Every law about sexuality is bigoted, evil, reprehensible, totally sickening.

Hand waves away any possibility that the Left has any responsibility for the Right fighting to preserve the old norms.

Hand waves away any pragmatic reason a moderate may support a law that doesn't allow the spectrum of sexuality teaching in k-5, protects kids in bathrooms or girls in sports and calls them all supporters of the Evil Right.

And then, claims he doesn't understand why more moderate people think he is just as big of a problem as the right wing loonies and that he is responsible for damaging those caught in the middle.

95/5. Lol.

Hi jjjou, 'transgender' is an adjective not a noun. It is - indeed! - good that states are allowing a transgender person to choose their gender.

Hope that helps.

I know eh.

Clarity at last and you're welcome.

No one who reads uke cannot see the constant appeal to 'look at who perpetrated the action' ONLY while always trying to change the topic instantly or suggest it is wrong to consider the road lead up to the action and what contribution that made.

You will find nothing more consistent on the far left. 'Point at the bad people and their actions', while ALWAYS trying to 'deflect any shame any conversations about approach or the role of others'.

Thus 100% to right actors, zero focus on left actors.

Template.

"We're here, we're queer, get used to it".

I had hoped the 90s era pride parade slogan was no longer needed in 2022. But sorry, you can't tone police and victim blame LGBT people into silence. Get used to it.

Blaming LGBT people for existing, absolutely disgusting.

Yeah, being the woken, virtue-signaling word policeman real helps you win. Well done.