FYP

And since you asked...

Schools typically have both and when they do not they typically just have recreational.

It is rare to see schools with a Competitive team but no other recreational but not the other way around. In fact a school might only have a small handful of competitive sports teams while having those same sports recreationally along with many, many more.


The big difference between Competitive and Recreational sport is that Competitive sport very deliberately sift for based on very tight attributes generally where the primary purpose it is to create and maintain a fair playing field. there is almost always limited number of spots on each team and competition for those spots with some people getting cut.

In contrast, recreational sport is designed very deliberately to maximize inclusiveness and with flexibility generally in each area including numbers of participants, thus generally nobody is getting cut.


In Competitive Sport striving to win is the primary purpose. Its modus operandi. Everything is basically a construct that serves that purpose to eventually sift and sort such that is the best line up against the best to compete for the Gold. Thus why a Fair Playing Field is crucial because otherwise the competition of best V best is meaningless. We already know before a single ball is hit that the best men can beat the best women so the competition is redundant. Just give the Men the Gold. If you understand why that is true in Men V Women, you should be able to understand why it then applies to trans women V cis women. It is the exact same reasoning.


So if schools have recreational leagues that focus on inclusive that is where the trans girl should play. My company formed a coed 3 pitch team. We went 50/50 guys and girls although the rules only required 3 girls minimum. We always played 50/50 on the field and we played to win. We were good too. But ultimately we sacrificed winning because the best teams would only play the minimum 3 girls and then all guys. We knew we would lose but that was not our highest priority. Inclusiveness was. We played hard. We were often top 5 in a league of 15 or so teams but we could not win. No way for us to overcome the extra testosterone advantage of the top teams.

That is what recreational sport is about.

The only real thing a trans person could not get their is the ability to dominate the cis women as if they don't belong while telling them they 'just need to get better.'

But then your argument has to be that people running and playing in women's sports leagues also don't care because no actual league or organization has rules Uke disagrees with.

This is bordering on parody.

He got me pretty good a couple of weeks back, too. He is good.

I'm just for the "presence or absence of Y" ... which covers about 99.999999 % of cases, even when they are irregular (amount of decimals depends on where you look). And this prevents the just declaring which category you are complication.

Aren’t you the guy that wants to get rid of all high school sports because people get fat and lazy after college?

When people say things like "why should trans kids be excluded from participating in sports," it isn't clear to me whether they are hypothesizing about or describing situations where the kids are actually barred by authorities from playing on the boys and the girls teams both (even though that would be unlikely in my estimation), without even the option of playing on the team of their assigned birth gender, or if they are including situations where the trans kids would be allowed to play on the team of their assigned gender, but they don't want to and/or it is deemed physically and/or emotionally unsafe from the potential of abuse by other students or staff. I feel like scenarios where a trans kid is allowed to play with their assigned gender, but doesn't want to play outside their gender identity even though the environment is safe and friendly, shouldn't automatically be categorized as an instance of them being "excluded from participating in sports."

I have to say (and you can pelt me with rotten fruit & veg), while I have read probably about 5% of all the words Cuepee has written ITT in the last 24 hours, I think I am still on his side of this argument.

FYP.

This was a reply to a post about 9th grade teams (and above I assume).

In the USA#1, what you posted here Cuepee doesn't fit reality. There are no schools that I have EVER heard of that field both a competitive team and a recreational team. You either make the school team (competitive) or you don't.

And to be more specific, there are no recreational teams in USA#1 high schools.

Don't worry, they will just ignore you as they do Rococo, when he says things that agree with my position.

They feel they can better spin and deflect and misstate my arguments and intent to demonize it, and they will not want to do that to you or him.

My view is ultimately reasonable and sensible and I have been consistent since this threads beginnings. Those who argued against me started way further out on positions of 'inclusion has to be the highest priority and any exclusion is wrong' while arguing 'competitive sport ideals include 'inclusion', therefore it can out rank other needs such as farness on the playing field' and to positions tending much closer to mine where they allow for exclusions in certain areas. And that slide towards my position WILL continue into College and High School as we see more young, Prime, athletes at those levels transition and just destroy the woman's playing field.

That is the main difference between my position and there's whether on this topic or the one of allowing by declaration only, current male inmates to declare and then by put in the women's population in a women's prison.

You see uke and others instantly blast back, as if only scare mongering and somehow trying to harm genuine trans people, can be the reason to say 'slow down. This needs to be considered more thoughtfully as many cis males in prison currently may abuse this to get both easier time and access to women'. Nope, they won't hear it. Do not even raise safety concerns about cis women because 'whatabout' the danger trans women face in prisons?

Uke and Trolly put on such blinders that they would shut down any such discussion as transphobic.

It is folly and dangerous in both sport and more so in prisons NOT to consider the slippery slope considerations and try to prevent the abuse of the systems at the beginnings and not doing actually hurts the genuine trans and cis people, both.

But those on the far left really have no way to conceptualize or deal with the idea of future threat. Far left liberalism requires them not to pre-consider (prejudge) any situation and consider bad outcomes., You must give everyone the benefit of the doubt first and then react to abuse and victims after. The far left is must more comfortable dealing with more victims and if that is in sport or prisons they will show up with their 'compassion' and welcome them to counselling and other services. But what they won't do is try to prevent the abuse at the onset if that means assuming any bad in people.

And while I think the far lefts idealistic compassionate view is a laudable desired world view, I also think it is up to more sensible people to protect 'others' so they do not become the victims the far left then are happy to roll out services to help.

I think we have discussed this before and I don't agree with the way you frame it.

Recreational sport is in almost all instance the precursor to Competitive sport in most communities and schools.

that dynamic might ("might") be flipped in some bigger cities but even that is doubtful.

In small communities across the US and Canada, it simply is not feasible to create competitive sports leagues that are 'cutting' people. They have few, and some 'no other' schools to compete with, and no formal infrastructural. And yet recreational sport in the school and community thrive, even if they are putting cones on the ground to make soccer nets, or buckets in a parking lot to create basketball nets.

I have seen no instances where you have the formality of Competitive sport and all the infrastructure sitting idol, more than it is used where recreational impromptu leagues do not pop up.

The city or the school builds a Football or Soccer pitch for their sporadic use and instantly recreational Frisbee football, frisbee golf, flag football and even regular football and soccer all form.

I would argue most communities and schools, especially the smaller ones, can only support a handful of Competitive sports (Football, Basketball, Volleyball) but below that you will almost ALWAYS see dozens of sports being played recreational.

Competitive sport is by its very nature exclusionary. Only a handful of people can compete and the rest get no access. That is a necessary part of Competitive sport and not a flaw. Recreational sport has no such requirement and generally operates on the opposite principle of everyone who wants to compete should have access.

No

Your view of USA high school sports is incorrect.

We have lived in medium to small sized USA from Mass to OR/WA. Seen it all. Our kids played multiple sports their entire K-12 time period. I also officiate HS (and lower) sports.

His view isn’t at all how schools in Canada work either. Almost every school has a “competitive” after school basketball team or whatever sports, but few would have a “competitive” team and a “recreational”.

The simple reality is banning young trans kids from “competitive” sports the way cuepee stupidly defined them is effectively banning them from the majority of school sports.

His point I believe is that past the BIG 3 of fball, bball and baseball, most schools don't have competitive teams.... only rec teams (((OR BOTH!))). Tell me I'm wrong with what I believe you think about this, QP.

To continue though, you are wrong about that too across America. There REALLY are not recreational sports in high schools past gym class.

Are you the guy that can barely read and is known for being dim, even by message board standards?

If all you knew was that some old dude on the internet was endlessly spamming pictures of trans women, what would you think? It’s quite hard to construct any context where this seems like a good idea.

That's not entirely fair, uke. Those pics are being posted in this thread....specific to transphobs and the like.

But.. I do agree that it is comical that we get to see the same pics over and over again.

I'd take it a step further and say it was entirely unfair. Lots of reasons to criticize Cuepee's posting ITT, but that one is somewhere on the spectrum of silly to out of line.

Dude is obviously mentally unwell and out of control. Just spazzes out about transgender people playing sports for 10,000 words all day every day. It’s an obsession.

Ya I don't accept I am wrong in either. I have a ton of family in the US and in Canada and recreation sports thru schools and the community were always more available and generally before Competitive sports.

My high school in my town of 70,000 could not even field certain teams for the competitive leagues available to us with other high schools. We just did not have enough kids to play hockey and Football. Our high school was just under 500 in total with only 70 senior boys so we strategically choose rugby and soccer but we had a scrum type football and basketball and badminton and all sorts of other sports that had ad hoc recreational play in our school. I played far FAR more sports recreationally than I did Competitively.

Towns of smaller than 70,000 with schools with less population, sorry they just do not have enough kids. Most of the small schools across Saskatchewan would have 100 kids in total from K-12. You are not fielding a Football team to play against other schools with that. But that does not stop a recreational team with a mix of all ages and genders forming to play.

You go into the 3rd world and you will see kids playing soccer and cricket where no organized league exists.

99% of time recreational sport proceeds Competitive sport and the options are much more vast. The biggest cities might be the exception. But XYZ small town and small school in that small town simply cannot field a full slate of teams for all the competitive sports but they certainly can play any and all of them recreationally once age and gender is not the driving concern.

Of course it is a good idea.

Pictures don't lie even if you and Trolly do.

Trolly keeps asking what the difference is? I can explain it with words and he can offer other words to spin and deny it.

What he cannot do is deny the pictures and what they say.

It is exactly that visual truth that is currently forcing the retreat and rethinking of these trans inclusion rules.

Prior to visual examples, people like you proclaimed 'look at the current results' trans women are not a threat to womens sport. Stop scaremongering about a future that is not here as if it would happen'.

Smarter people like me said 'it was only a matter of time before you would SEE the result of your ill thought policy'.

Organizations for sport first listened to but then visual results started to happen and happen fast. A miniscule percent of trans women started to have massively outsized result. The type of which in any statistically analysis class would lead to immediate investigations of cheating. You cannot have a relatively tiny population of E.German women dominating the much larger world population without rightful suspicions of some unfair advantage being taken advantage of (steroids).

Same for Trans women in womens sport. The outsized results screamed 'unfair advantage'. Any of our mah brains here would confirm that to be statistically accurate. Some unfair advantage is being brought to the playing field by that group.

And nothing will ever be better than the visual (the pictures of the person and how badly they destroyed the field in their win) as people like you and Trolly tr desperately to use words to spin otherwise.

Not using the pictures would be foolish. A purposeful denial of the reality right before our eyes.

You heard it here first from our moderator: Cuepee you are a transphob.

Look, if at some point in the dim distant past there was someone ITT (I don't believe there ever was) that didn't believe trans women had a competitive advantage in top level sport, then sure, post your picture. Once. Maybe twice.

But obsessively posting these photos over and over and over again is just weird. It obviously isn't disputing a single thing anyone is saying, so why keep at it? We've all seen them so.many.times from you. Just delete the folder from your harddrive and move on with your life.