You have a false premise .
You just take one aspect of a fiscal program, disregarding every other !
The equalization program is to make sure every Canadian have similar health care services, education and welfare programs , agree ?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equa...ents_in_Canada

“ Parliament and the government of Canada are committed to the principle of making equalization payments to ensure that provincial governments have sufficient revenues to provide reasonably comparable levels of public services at reasonably comparable levels of taxation.

— Constitution Act, 1982, s. 36(2)[4]”

Funny thing , Quebec didn’t even sign it , that 1982 constitution was imposed on us , but w.e ….that is another issue .

Let’s play a game ….
4 millions Québécois decide all to move to Alberta .
( meaning we exchanged of the population of both provinces )
What you think happens to the equalization program ?
True Quebec will receive 0 but watch out how the tax on Alberta to provide health care to 8 million instead of 4 millions citizens …I’m not including other social services like education that is taken into account ….
Ps: I promise you the cost will exceed what Quebec receive with the equalization program by a big margin .

Or take those 4 millions and disperse between all of the Atlantic provinces .
They will all receive incredibly high payments , Alberta still remains at 0 and Quebec will as well have 0 transfer ( but with a ton more money without the transfer since not providing social services to half his population is easily over 50% Quebec budget ..:.)

Get the point ?
Alberta fighting the equalization program actually is fighting to provide less healthcare and other social services to all Canadian , to have more money in their pockets…

Even tho Alberta already as the highest income per capita in Canada …
The most favorables people wanting to reduce their tax that benefits those that needed the most is not a new issue ….who knew ….

That’s what the “spirit” of the program is .
Aiming at Quebec is nonsense , with a different distribution of the population , others would still get the money but 0 would remains to Alberta anyway.

The more obvious and import question is , why a rich province like Alberta still have financial problems to care about the equalization program that is for the benefits of all Canadian and not for a particular province ?

Now if you want to talk numbers in another post I will with you , but it won’t get better I promise you ….

This is something very important lozen.

Alberta do not pay themselves .
It’s Canada that pays from its total revenue .

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/can...nney-1.5281736

“ Not the provinces. Not provincial governments. According to the Library of Parliament, "Equalization is financed entirely from government of Canada general revenues" raised through federal taxes on all Canadians.”

Do you hear Quebec says , hey we pay for that trans mountain pipeline (4.5 billions ?) to benefits Alberta with our tax, when it’s Canada that pay it with its total revenue ?
It makes no sense ….

Same thing with equalization program .
It’s 1 program through many .

Should Quebec complain here about Alberta and the “unfairness” of Ottawa and Alberta ?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...orts-1.6153385

“ Albertans received more COVID-19 financial support from the federal government than people in any other province — and the provincial government has also left the most federal money unused, according to a new report.”

“ Albertans also received the highest level of COVID-19 support in total of people in any province, averaging $12,350 per person — and 92 per cent of those costs fell to the federal government with eight per cent coming from provincial coffers, the report found.”

“ The report attributes Alberta's high numbers to $1 billion from the federal oil and gas well closure program and substantial uptake of business support programs.”

Oil companies and Alberta pay tax for equalization but hey … they receive money too right ?

Should Quebec complain and claims it’s their money Alberta got ?
You win in some programs and you lose in others , shrug .

That whole concept of equalization debate is all about the fact to hide that Alberta politicians did screw up plenty on the economical level …. It’s a diversion ….

Fwiw lozen .
20 billions is spend from the Canadian government revenues in 2019 for equalization program .

Let’s say for fun tomorrow , trudeau abolish that redistribution program and decide to return that portion of tax revenue to its citizen and province , how you think it will come about ?

Very simple .

Alberta provide around 15% revenue to Canada in 2019 .

Trudeau takes that 20 billions redistribution program and scrap it .

20 billions spending (through equalization program from Canada) X 15% (Alberta share tax revenue paid to Canada in total ) = 3 billions …that is what Alberta would receive .
That is how it would work ….

All the income Canada government received from provinces isn’t confine to only natural ressources right ….?

When you read things like Alberta pays 15 billions to Quebec is totally ludicrous.

Is anyone sitting on the remote? Montrealcorp seems to be stuck on "post".

Kind of like you and Cuepee on Trans Gender

Hey he is passionate about it. Though I think he missed the fact I voted NO which means to keep the current system

My point is we are still transferring the most money due to our resource revenue yet Provinces like Quebec and BC do not want our dirty oil yet have no issue polluting their provinces or contributing to climate change if it benefits their coffers.

I still think bill 91 is racist as well and we will disagree on that as well

'our' resources?

I live in Alberta and the closest I ever got to an oil well was driving past one on the highway, so the notion that it's somehow 'mine' because I live closer is kind of stupid.

Reality is 'our' oil is just as much 'theirs' as it is 'ours', since we are all Canadians. But maybe that's part of the problem, that too many Albertans are Albertan first and Canadian second, as opposed to the other way around.

Under the veil of ignorance, if you know a country has a number of provinces but you have no idea which one you are going to live in. One of those provinces is going to win the lottery and have a bunch of oil in their province. But which system do you prefer, one in which the winner of the lottery keeps all the spoils, or one in which every province benefits as equally as possible? It can't be exactly equal because that province will get all the benefits of those local jobs, nothing that can be done about that.

Does Quebec share its wealth from Hydro? Does BC give Alberta a portion of its tourism $ ?

If there is ever a me first province it is Quebec

So what you're saying is you prefer a system where all provinces share their wealth?

An equalization program, if you will.

Yes that is why I voted No on the equalization . A No vote means keep it the way it is.
But I also want access to markets which BC and Quebec will not provide . So I want not a single $ of Alberta Revenue going to Quebec

If Kenney really wanted to send a message he would halt all exports of fuel to BC

Don't want a single dollar of ab revenue going to qc. Do you even hear yourself. How are you so off base on so many topics across the board? It's astonishing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equali...ents_in_Canada

Please explain to me what is wrong in its description?

Sure but then make that the case for everything across Canada equally as all shared assets and do not treat select resources (Oil and Gas) any different then a tourist friendly Coast line (Vancouver) or a big city centre (Toronto).


What Albertans rightly have come to resent is the blatant hate they get for the source of this contribution...




... while at the same time the other Provinces eagerly reap the benefits of it.

And no one makes the contempt more clear than Quebec, who arguably benefits the most for a big Province.

Most asset classes are treated the same. There is a common taxation of everything, and then the equalization scheme pays out to communities with worse per capita economic base in a way completely agnostic to the source of the tax revenue.

Fossil Fuels are an outlier, though. First, just a note that treated exactly the same isn't quite true (example: feds bought a pipeline to support the industry). However, if there ever was a sector that deserved disadvantage, fossil fuels would be it to try and make forward progress on combatting climate change this is the sector.

I lived in Alberta for a number of years and saw it go from boom to bust across the 2014 Oil and Gas price plummet.

As AB struggled as a Province in 2014 onward and became a debtor Province, in actuality, they were refused any adjustment in the Equalization formula's to help alleviate the stresses and decline. They still paid out more than they received back and we saw the cuts of all sorts of areas across the Province as a result.

Conversely Quebec and Ontario were having a boon with lower energy costs and Quebec had moved out of debtor status and was enjoying record revenues. And yet all thru those years AB was still forced to pay more (lose/lose)and QB still got to take it in to add their record revenues (win/win).

So again it I think no one should be surprised when the loudest voices in Canada often saying 'f*ck AB' are those in Quebec when it comes to the source of that wealth, they so enjoy, the Energy Sector.

And for the record I know there is lots of debate and controversy in how things are measured and over 'Resource Treatment' in the tax code so I am not really weighing in on that as I know arguments on all sides can be posted for as long as any one wants to get into them.

My point is more on perception, right or wrong. Quebec has relied on equalization payments more than any other Big Province. There really appears to be no structural issues as to why QB should be a perennial debtor when they have the same general benefits that Ontario does (proximity to the US, etc) to be successful. And AB has contributed the most per capita to the redistribution formula which Quebec enjoys.

So when QB sticks their thumb in AB's eye and says 'f*ck you and your resources', and it seems they never miss a chance to shout that and vote against everything AB, but then takes the bulk of the cash generated while touting their superior lifestyle and social programs (both of which I support in QB btw), you should understand why that would irk people in AB.

I don't really get your point about a "debtor" province. The equalization payments have nothing to do with whether a specific provincial government chooses to run a deficit or not. It is about the the size of the provincial economy (technically "fiscal capacity"). This makes sense. If it was about whether the province ran a deficit, that would create an incentive to run deficits.

At a high level it is pretty simple. Alberta won the resource lottery and as such has the highest per capita revenues in the country. It makes sense to redistribute that wealth. That statement is entirely separate from the observation that the source of that wealth is very harmful to the planet and we should be doing more to use and pump out less oil. I sometimes think albertans just make up what they think quebecors think largely as something to demonize, but regardless I see no tension at all with supporting equalization payments while also wanting to reduce the dependency on oil and gas in the canadian economy.

If you and I lived in a community that socialized our wealth uke. And I somehow had a resource on my land that i could work to massive benefit and you did not, and you struggled to pay all your bills with what you had, I might in fact be fine with some form of equalization payments to help you out. That our local gov't took some form of 'tax' and redistributed it.

However if you were the loudest one decrying the resources on my land and calling for them to be shut down and acting as if you had disdain for me and my family while treating us like we are bad people for exploiting them all the while you take your share willingly and gladly to pay your bills, I think it is fair to then not like you back. Maybe if took a principled stance and refused the money, I would respect you more but those same people seem to think 'oh no, of course we won't do that. We will eagerly take every cent' while then blaming you for how it is generated.

Quebec is almost always the loudest with the biggest f*ck you message to Albertans when it comes to any discussions with the Federal gov't over resource issues. I honestly think it is a way to wash themselves of any responsibility for it. But guess what, if it 'our resource Nationally to be shared', then it is 'our blame Nationally for its impact', and as long as Quebec welcomes the money I think they need to be more willing to point the fingers at themselves.

So it sounds like this:
isn't really a complaint that the equalization formula is wrong or should be changed to account for provincial choices to run deficits, it is mostly just reactionary poo-flinging over your caricature of quebecors' rhetoric? I guess tone policing is kinda your thing.

Oh yaaa. Lets bring our Trans discourse to this thread now. Good work uke. I'm your huckleberry, lets do this until they shut this thread down!

For the record, complaints about 'tone police' are the norm for people who tend to be the most shitty in how they convey their points in non productive ways and who get called out on it. They hope if they can shut down complaints about 'tone' they can be their usual shitty selves without being called on it.

'Tone' is important. If Quebec does not want most of the population of another Province mad at them then certainly tone should be considered.

You would think a Uni Prof would understand the value of tone if you are seeking any type of agreement or consensus. It is clear you are the type to put zero value on it and quite the opposite. You purposely choose antagonistic tones which then gives you waht you want, which is the fight.

I"m sorry, I'm still confused. You said this:
Do you think they were wrong to not adjust the equalization formula to reflect alberta's choice to run deficits? You missed the point, I'm not interested in discussing the tone of Quebec. I'm curious if there is actually a point here about the structure of equalization payments.

Already addressed.

+1

I still am entirely unclear why you raised that point about Alberta being a "debtor" province in 2014. That fact of course is entirely irrelevant to the equalization formula. It seems like you don't want to make any comments about changes to the equalization formula. So I guess I'm just confused what point you are making? Why is Alberta going into deficit relevant to anything?

Gotta call them as I see them: wtf is with BC adding $25 dollar per FOI request!
https://www.cheknews.ca/b-c-s-privac...i-fees-901306/. Wtf! Transparency, especially when it can involve a lot of documents, shouldn't be some big friction borne by independent journalists. There is friction there, of course, but the costs of that friction should be paid for by the government.

And OF COURSE Alberta is the province with the $25 fee that BC is now emulating.