public class RobotMoney

lol hilariously ******ed

Your ability to rationalize one form of advantage while spurning another is epic.

Don't confuse "fish" with "people I haven't played any hands with yet."

If anything, HUDs are amazing at identifying fish. It can take hundreds or thousands of hands to get a really effective read from a HUD on a good regular. A HUD lets you spot a huge fish in what... 15 hands?

Wow, I sure hope they use that "advantage" they have for the first ten minutes, since you'll be spanking them forever after that.

Yep. Totally fair.

100% agree that if you took the average 1/2 casino player, they log into stars, choose the first 1/2 table available [almost definitely a [20-50 table], they buyin for 100, they are seated with a bunch of 40 stacks, and the poker style to them turns out to be very wtf, they are ratholed a few times, go busto, say online poker is rigged/ridiculous/stupid/etc, dont' re-deposit, don't enjoy the experience, don't come back.

I'll be honest, I'm just straight up skeptical that if you take those live players who are smart enough/think it's worth it enough to pick a poker site, download software, and go through the hassle of making a deposit, they will suddenly become impatient morons incapable of realizing the various game sizes.

So many people want to convince me that after all that trouble getting started, people are then NOT taking 15 seconds to figure out what kind of games are available. I just don't buy it.

Just about any player who is going to find pokerstars, download and install, deposit, sit down at a game, realize it's not the same, and give up after two buyins, is never going to install and deposit in the first place.

However, let's say I concede that this hypothetical player actually exists, and we take away 20-50BB games.

They're still going to find and buy in at a 1-2 table.

You really think they won't "get ratholed" a few times? You really think the poker style won't be "wtf" compared to what he's used to? A 1-2 casino player is going to get run over at a 100BB table like a bunny rabbit in the middle of a monster truck rally, and you know it.

The kind of player you're describing is a fish of the highest order, and is getting soul crushed out of his bankroll in an hour no matter what game he plays.

Trying to make the case that they'll get killed at a short table and give up, without acknowledging the exact same thing won't happen at a 40-100BB table, is pure BS.

Sorry but most fish are players with whom you haven't played hands yet. This comes from the fact that they go broke pretty fast and therefore you can't have many hands on them. Like you said it takes many hands to get a read on a good reg using a HUD. Same applies to fish. You need at least 150 hands to get any kind of reasonable and very basic read from a fish using a HUD. The fish doesn't need that many hands since he is playing less tables and can pay attention to every hand and write notes. All of that doesn't of course make up for the huge skill gap between your average reg and fish but there is nothing unfair about the skill advantage. As for using the HUD to spot the fish then that is just stupid. Most of the time I don't need the HUD to spot the fish and if I do then 15 hands will never be enough.

I don't know about North-America or Asia, but In Europe it is ridiculously easy to play and deposit online. The whole procedure won't take more than 5 min. After that you are ready to play. Your average casino player will probably know nothing about shortstack strategy and the ratholing that goes with it. If he did then he wouldn't be you average casino player. IMO ratholing is something that is quite frowned upon in a casino and if he sits at the 20-50BB table he will be ratholed many times over before he is broke. If he however sits at the normal or deep tables there will be no ratholing. Yes he will get killed on both tables but that will be due to his lack of skill only. Besides loosing his money he will have no bad experiences when he plays at the normal tables since most fullstack regs don't see the need to angle shoot where ever possible. Since he probably is used to loosing money at a live table as well he will simply say it was bad luck and come back another day.

You could wait for your HUD to get its 150 hands to identify the fish.

Or you could look in your bathroom mirror.

Self-serving and self-delusion has reached a new level.

I along with many of us here use tracker, HUD, PTR to identify and stay away from solid TAGs, regs, winners...and go after the recreational players.

The clueless fish get slaughtered pretty fast nowadays thanks to these tools. Let us not kid ourselves here.

Oops, I'm confusing new posters who start threads about tired topics.

That's quite a detailed and insightful description, but it's a work of fiction. Not to say it couldn't be accidentally true, but just to say you don't know (any more than I do). It does seem safe to assume that all different recreational players like all different things and differ in almost as many ways as other human beings, and that your propensity for painting them all with the same brush is probably misguided.

But anyway. I'm a SS player who has serious doubts about the long-term sustainability of the 20bb game, but obviously I can't dictate what Stars does. They have way more relevant info than any of us and are going to act accordingly.

All I can do is play in the games, or on the sites, that I think will best suit my goals. How you can consider that an angle shoot is beyond me.

I don't use PTR since using it is actually against the rules of the sites. I also don't try to avoid regulars at any cost and will gladly play HU with them to get a table started. The HUD helps you identify regulars because you have played 500+ hands with them. If I play 500+ hands with someone they usually get a color coded note so the HUD becomes useless in identifying them. The fish don't get slaughtered because of HUDs. A HUD is a tool that helps you multitable. The fish get slaughtered because they are less skillful than the regulars.

He considers it an angle shoot because he is mind bendingly stupid. He is not a poker player, he is a gamer. He needs his software to tell him what to do. He's probably the kind of guy that goes and gets the cheat codes the same time he buys a new video game.

He relies on his HUD to the extent that it actually takes him 150 hands against a player before he trusts his HUD to tell him what to do. He's so busy multitabling that he cannot take notes or even notice the stack size of his opponents. So he whines and spreads his idiotic blather all over this forum because Stars, for whatever reason, does not currently find it in their interest to cater to full stack multitabling fish in this one instance. The entire Stars VIP program is set up to benefit multitabling nits but it's not good enough for this dummy. He needs more.

Eto is not suited for poker, he should go back to WoW or wherever he came from, where he pathetically can make himself feel something like a man by pwning n00bs. Stars' business model appears to be to offer a wide variety of wagering games, and since they are the big boys on the block, they just might be onto something. He does not have to play any game they offer and if others do, then it should not affect him.

Of course people are different. That does not mean that you can not draw conclusions about a group. You use statistics and find out what the group as a whole likes and dislikes. You don't sell a product to one person you sell it to a certain group. Casino players as group by my observations dislike ratholing.
Therefore it is safe to assume that the average casino player dislikes ratholing. Of course you might find one player in a thousand who doesn't mind it or even likes to get ratholed but the other 999 will still dislike it.
Of course the final decision is up to Stars but that does not mean that we can't discuss this matter and offer suggestions. If you play 20-50BB and rarely rathole then you are not angle shooting. If you however rathole constantly then yes you are angle shooting.

How nice of you to compile such a well argued response. I now see the error of my ways. Shortstacking is the one true form of poker. Now go back to your playpen and stay quiet while the grownups talk.

The sophistication of shortstackers is displayed nicely in threads devoted to this topic. Apparently fish are not the only handi-capable demographic in poker.

how many of you are foresight fish that voted for stars to implement these tables and now are voting for them to be removed?

....wow.

I guess I don't even know what to say at this point.

You're doing it wrong.

You're telling me that when you look at your HUD after 20 hands and one of the players is playing 75/3 with a 70% WTSD, that doesn't give you a read?

Whatever. I can't believe you're sitting here saying that a HUD a fish doesn't even know exists doesn't give you any advantage over them, but a mild etiquette breach (ratholing) evident to anyone who has ever played poker longer than 15 minutes, is killing them.

If he is playing 75/3 I don't need a HUD and 20 hands to see that he is a fish. The moment he open limps I know he is a fish. If you need a HUD to tell you that he is a fish then you are doing it wrong. The fish probably only plays one or two tables so he has a lot more time to observe me than I have to observe him. If I was playing fewer tables I would be getting the same info without the HUD since I would pay more attention. So like I said before the HUD is mostly there for multitabling it does not give you an advantage against a player who plays one or two tables.
Also I don't get ratholed every 15min. online. I usually get ratholed something like once or twice a day max. If you play normal poker you have no reason to rathole.

sadly your freedom means jack ***** i mean.....look at your government's policies

lol @ the thought of Stars paying attention to this or any other thread regarding 20bb tables. They stopped caring about the players years ago.

I hate short stacking scum. Make all the tables 40-100, 100-250.

but I voted!

You're doing it wrong.

Since reading comprehension is not your strong suit, let me put it to you like I would to a six year old, so you can understand it. There are a lot of people that like to play 20bb NLHE NLHE poker. You are not forced to play in these games. There are plenty of tables with 100bb stacks that you can play in. In fact, Stars has a filter in its lobby to keep those evil tables from even showing up. Play the game that you like, which is the one where you are so disorganized that it takes you 150 hands to get a read on an opponent.

Cliffs: You are a muppet.

Just yesterday I had another typical experience on why banning short stack buyin will be bad for all winning players. Even though I'm a fish myself and dropped two stacks here in the Gibraltar live casino, the biggest fish at the table had thousands of pounds in his pockets but chose to feel more comfortable in dropping 25 BB a time, every few hands. And sometimes of course doubling up.

Why should he - whom we all rely on (as a sample for recreational players) - be forced to buy in differently?