Would you think it's "Effed up" if this was the system used for paychecks and an employer decided not to pay an employee anything although the employee fulfilled or exceeded expectations? I agree that there is nothing legally binding that employer to pay the employee anything and it would basically be up to the public opinion to police such occurrences by speaking with their wallets (or who knows, as we're going waaaaay hypothetical to make points).

I'm not saying that the system shouldn't change. I'm just saying that you're rationalizing "not tipping" under the guise of "fighting the system" when all that's really happening is that you won't fork out a few bucks here and there because you're under no legal obligation to do so. I agree that there are tons of things in society that don't really make sense and that if we all just one day agreed to change things, the world would be a better place. The Two-Party political system that's in place here in the US would be one example off the top of my head.

The problem is that without some sort of significant event, there won't be enough people to affect this sort of change. Since we don't live in a perfect world, this tipping system is in place. Knowing that, yes, I think it's unethical that you don't tip and that you're exploiting the system. Again, though, I will grant you the following:

I do agree with your overall opinion that I think it makes more sense to just have the cost worked into the goods. I've seen "no tipping" golf courses work this way. The employees cannot accept tips and they get paid much better wages but make a little bit less than others working the same position at other places in the industry. This ensures there is no favoritism and that everyone gets treated the same.

It's fine to argue against the tipping culture in theory. But to withhold tips for a normal level of service after voluntarily putting yourself into a tipping situation is unethical. Reid already covered well what normal service is.

@z4reio, there's nothing wrong with your approach. You're withholding tips when you're given ****ty service.

@lester, "bargainloading" sounds silly to me; it sounds like you're simply trying to make yourself feel better about freeloading.

I feel the same way sometimes. In a sense, I feel like I contribute to this thread as a courtesy. I try to let those who work on the tip receiving side better understand patrons like myself and I figure if they understood my kind better, that ought to help them cope with 'cheapskates' better.

It is interesting and that's what continues to draw me back here.

I'm going to say this in response to you, Rapini, because I trust that you can reasonably take it better:

First of all, there's too much of that 'you're just trying to make yourself feel better' ITT. It comes across as if there's something wrong with making oneself feel better and that instead one should only be concerned with making another feel better when it comes to tipping. (I know this is a harsh way to put it...) It's a sorry ass, guilt tripping, blame shifting, hypocritical statement. This is basically the equivalent of saying 'the hell with you, just tip ffs'. IOW, it does more harm than good for the tip receiving side.

It might sound silly, but I'm simply trying to make the distinction between a low cost and no cost. As a low maintenance patron I will seek bargains. If all I'm doing is having a sandwich and a drink at a cafe, I will place my order and ask for the check immediately and let the server know I will need nothing else. Just deliver my food (though I'd gladly just get up and get it myself if I could) along with the check, please, and forget I'm there, thank you. If the bill is something like $10-$12 and most people might tip 20%, I'm just leaving $1 tip. I'm using a bargain version of the service so I'm offering a bargain cost. And as for poker, instead of tipping $1 a pot, on average I'll probably tip $1 on maybe 2 out of every 4 or 5 pots. Instead of bringing quarter rolls as has been mentioned, I will just alternate between $1 tips and zero tips. And in doing so I'm paying attention, playing in turn, and respectfully contributing to the game running smoothly. I require low maintenance 'service' at the poker table and will oblige with bargain tips. This way I am meeting ethical and moral obligations fused with my personal bargain principles.

Seeing how cheap or stingy projects more of a derogatory tone, I thought bargainloading might put a gentler spin on it. But call it what you want, whatever.

Along the lines of the whole raise the rake and have no tipping thing:

The End of Restaurant Tipping?
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/end-re...112546842.html

Jenn Harris of Solana Beach, CA is no dummy.

This happens a lot already, I'm sure.

If protecting myself against exploitation within the system is a form of exploitation itself, then yes I'm "being unethical," but only within the crooked system obviously. Not only is this evidence enough that it's a screwed up, unfair and imbalanced system, but that more and more shouldn't be participating in it and helping perpetuate it.

What do you suppose would happen if starting TODAY America decided, "you know what? **** tipping"? I can tell you that within the week there would be legislation passed nation-wide across all states that would raise the minimum wage in the service industry to match all others, if employers continued on with the service industry worker anal gangbang.

Surely, you understand the difference between visiting a restaurant for the food/reviews/word of mouth versus the mentality of, "I'm purposefully going to go out to and eat just to screw and stiff the servers." The latter is being unethical. Of course, I'm voluntarily putting myself in that situation, nobody forced me. And as such, nobody is going to force giving a voluntary tip. Not paying for your meal, though, can be enforced, and people have been arrested in the past for not paying.

The flawed system shouldn't be a deterrent in an effort to main ethical, because the system itself is exploitative in nature (if you disagree with this premise, please say why). Exploitation in and of itself is unethical. So, in a fantastic twist of irony, if you want to be ethical, don't tip!

Nice post, but obviously, as someone who is a member of the world's foremost poker forum, you understand that 2 isn't exactly a relevant sample size.

It's really not a cop out at all. I would be happy to provide an answer if you let me know how I would be able to measure people's happiness level in a mathematical fashion.

Sure. What percent of people who tip very well are happy outside of the poker room?

If you don't have enough information to answer this, then perhaps it's best to just think what everyone else does, which is that tipping has no relevance on one's overall happiness.

Anyway, this is pointless. It's like you guys are asserting that people should tip more so they will become happier people. Depression cured by tipping 30%...

This is all I was trying to get you to say. You are delusional if you think that every time you stiff someone you're not being unethical.

You are screwing and stiffing the servers. Whether that is your sole intention doesn't matter if that is a result of your actions and you are aware of the cause and effect consequence.

You ARE Mr. Pink. Blame society so you can be a cheapskate. Look at how much time and effort you spent in the last few posts trying to somehow rationalize it when it just comes down to "You can't make me, I don't want to, and I don't care if they deserve it or not."

Reid already said it better than I can, but he didn't quote the funniest part of your post. You apparently think that tipped employees who took their jobs voluntarily somehow are being exploited or that you as a voluntary patron of establishments with tipped staff somehow are being exploited. Hopefully you'll be able to reread that and realize how ridiculous your stance is.

If you don't like tipping, that's great! Then don't go to places with tipped staff.

Would you please quote the poster who said that tipping more makes you a happier person? I must have missed that post and I want to see if I need to respond to it.

He said, "Can we all agree that better tippers are almost without a doubt happier people?"

I never said that poster said that tipping more makes you happier.

It's already been pointed out, but no one came close to saying anything similar to your final paragraph.

As far as your 2nd paragraph, I'm sure it'd be awesome for you if I just went along with your line of thought because you want me to, but in real life, debating doesn't work this way.

How would I have any possible way of knowing what percentage of people are happy? How would you even measure this?

I know what I see. Obviously, the person who made the comment knows what he sees, too. Your average person who sits there and nits it up, never throwing the dealer a buck and obsessing over EV, looks miserable. We all see it all the time. Meanwhile, the recreational player, who is tipping a lot, is usually someone enjoying some brews at the table, making conversation, having a great time. Being generous is more fun than being stingy.

I'm just trying to figure out the reason for pointing out the observation. Without him elaborating, we can only infer.

Exactly. You don't know what they are like away from the table.

Sure. I will agree that people who tip well are happier while playing cards. That's it. I don't take it any further than that.

Are you suggesting that tipping more will make people happier at the tables?

To be honest, this would be a great idea, if it was possible to enforce. Unfortunately, that guy could just pay one dealer one dollar and now he's a 'tipper'. He could even wait until security comes and then toss the dealer a buck. Or, even if he lied and said he tipped the dealer an hour ago, are they going to go to the cameras?

How is this more arrogant than if I tell my employer or a client "If you don't want to pay me a fair price for my service, hire someone else" or when someone doesn't want to pay enough for a product I am selling to go somewhere else and try and find a better deal?
This is not a logical next step. Not even as logical as "Sorry George, you never play slots or table games. Poker is a loss leader." Because when George sits down he is paying for the right to use whatever (legal) strategy he desires. If there are too many people like George the casino can compensate by using a drop system like in California, or even make a new rule that if you don't put money, above and beyond your big blind, in the pot in an orbit before you are UTG, you must staddle.
People do all sorts of bad things, simply because the know they can get away with it. Should we just live with that? The best poker example I can think of is angle shooting. Should we just live with the very small percentage of poker players that are angle shooters?
I doubt it. When I am in a restaurant and they assign a mandatory tip, I never give any more, even if the mandatory tip was less than I planned to give. I'm sure the same phenomenon would apply here.

It was never said. Not in exact words. Do not ask - who said tipping more makes you a happy person? Instead ask - what is the purpose of making a statement along the lines of 'better tippers are almost always happier people'? If you do what I've just suggested, you might figure out the underlying message. And it's not the first time for something along these lines to be said in this thread. The fact that it was never expressly stated is conveniently deniable, but z4reio didn't just pull this idea out of his ass for the sake of contentiousness because the implied message exists.

When you have a thread where some might give examples how tipping below average makes sense to them, and you have somebody chiming in with 'better tippers tend to be happier people', it is essentially a jab which implies some variant of 'you're just miserable'. And doing so can be an attempt to muddy the waters - instead of considering what could be sensible reasons to tip however one wants, don't let intellectual thinking get involved, just go by generous tipping = happy = good = right / cheap tipping = unhappy = bad = wrong.

Sure people seem to be happier when they are out in a tipping environment, but this is often just a release. They could be stressed out at work all week and not getting along with family at home, and generally be unhappy. But come time to go to the poker room and drink beers and chum it up with their default buddy dealers, this is happy time and an escape from their miserable lives (Which is ok, and as a player, I too will engage them and encourage happy spewy time). Perhaps my previous post about overcompensation was mistakenly taken as in monetary terms, but in case I need to make it clear, it was meant as overcompensating with happiness among strangers in a tipping environment to make up for an otherwise unhappy life. Tipping more very well can make you happier...(but don't forget to complete the sentence)...in the moment. But for some of these observed happy people, that happiness dissipates when they have to return to their crappy lives. Exceptions of course, but blanket analysis that better tippers are happier people is, in all honesty, ridiculous.

Equally ridiculous would be an assertion that saying that big tippers tend to be happier than non-tippers = saying that tipping 30% cures depression.

That was hyperbolic sarcasm.

The point is tipping lavishly or not has nothing to do with one's happiness. Lester explained very well why this is the case.

Right, in a vacuum it is. But considering the context of the last few pages it makes sense as long as you realize how this was a purposely mocking exaggerated interpretation.

Edit: z4reio beat me to it

This is actually the 2nd time in 24 hours you've come up with this despite no one actually saying it. I don't think they award anything on this site for a hat trick.

No, I wasn't.

That's why I was asking, as I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

You type a long paragraph about how people who tip well are outgoing, joking and having a good time etc., and how bad tippers are grumpy and then you end the paragraph with, "Being generous is more fun than being stingy" so you'll have to bear with me if I misinterpreted that as you possibly asserting that tipping well will lead to having more fun.

@ Reid. I already knew that there was a time limit until this degenerated into flaming and vitriol. I went against my gut and tried introducing arguments into this anyway.

A wise man once told me not too long ago, "you can't use reason to change a mind that's already made up, don't even bother. It's a waste of time and energy. You need something more, you need positive emotion and a feeling of personal stake or gain." (Guy might have been a politician in a previous life or something, because he certainly knew something I didn't, and he naturally was a convincing and influential - charming - person.)

At least one of you is obviously losing their cool, and I've been keeping this rational as much as possible without allowing for emotional appeals to enter into the discussion. I've been called a hypocrite and other names so far, and the only thing I've been saying in return is trying to argue my points in a civil manner. Both of you should give me a 20% tip just for that.

Too late, though. Who GAF now, it doesn't even matter. I don't think it never really mattered. The only delusion I had here was thinking I could make somebody listen to reason and change their thinking about the subject (LOL).

@ Rapini. Are you for real? Really? Wow, alright. I sometimes overestimate people, but whatever. I'm still going to give you the benefit of the doubt, though, and say that you didn't read anything that's being said by the opposite side in this discussion, and skimmed all of it instead, thinking you got it, but barely got the gist of it. The other alternative (besides the IDGAF one) is that you just couldn't comprehend, and I'm not the type of person who hurls insults in these spots (it's counter-productive and brings in more of the bad **** that needs to be kept out in these kinds of exchanges).

I'm going to be fair and give it one last shot by pointing it out to you:

They're being exploited by the very same system that they're defending. Who's doing the assfuc - exploiting? Their Goddamn bosses and the *politicians. The servers in turn, exploit the same system by buttressing patrons with favouritism, and then society guilt-trips them into giving handouts for simply doing the job they were hired to do. The only defence against this corrupted system is abstaining, not avoiding the establishments in the first place. If people started doing that (the thing you're so adamant about), there wouldn't BE these restaurants and other establishments, and the servers would be all be laid off.

lol...

There are no ****ing handouts in life, nobody deserves ****, and it's all unfair. I pay for the food or whatever, and the workers get paid by the person my money directly goes to. It's that damn simple.

*Preliminary Googling tells me that US federal law states that if a server's wage with tips does not meet the state minimum wage levels, the employer must make up the difference.

Good news, everyone. All of you were off the hook to begin with, and none of you ever had to pay a single dollar in tips right from the get-go.

To every pompous ass (excluding this pompous ass - me) who ever silently sneered, "cheapskate", "scrooge" and "freeloader" or anything of the sort, congratulations. You've been burning money for your own ego's comfort, buying zero-value social acceptance credits, feeding a corrupted system disguised as an ethical social norm.

You win one pat on the back.

If I happen to play poker at any casino or club against any tip cop who lambasts me at the table, I've always planned to tell them to go **** themselves and to mind their own business. Amazingly, nobody has said a word so far at the tables.

FYI, I play in the occasional underground poker game or homegame where the dealers and waitresses work strictly on tips. Guess what? Despite your eventual scepticism and disbelief, I always ****ing tip, even if I'm losing, because I have the basic decency to understand that they're fundamentally (not basically, actually) working for free.

Doesn't matter though, the anti-tipping folks like myself have been demonized beyond the point of no return (I can feel the horns growing on my forehead). Not that it matters what randoms on the internet think of me. It's simply food for thought the next time somebody who argues against tipping comes in and gets his ******* seared by tip zealots.

And the coup de grace, because it just needs to be said over, and over, and over again in one form or another:



Take it easy, guys. Until next time.

Like yours?

I would think the anti-tipping folks would encourage others to tip so
you can reap the benefits of good service while letting others pay for it.

You convince enough people to stop tipping and the good dealers and waitresses will find another job.

That's hilarious. These comments are all too predictable.

I didn't see your reasoning, by the way. Was it drowned out by the all the rhetoric being thrown everywhere, or did you forget to stop and think?