I think this question was addressed to a different post, but I'll answer it based on my own pattern.

I expect a baseline level of skill/professionalism. If a dealer fails to achieve a basic level, then I'll tip less. However, I'm not going to reward a dealer with bigger tips for being more highly skilled.

I'm defining 'highly skilled' based on attributes such as keeping the game moving at a good pace, not flashing cards when pitching, keeping track of all bets, raises, side pots, etc. with accuracy, etc.

On the other hand, among dealers who meet the basic level of skill & professionalism, my tips will increase based primarily on 3 factors:

1. Dealer has an exceptional attitude. Calls me by name. Seems to truly enjoy his or her time dealing. Always seems to make the table a lively game, where the players are having a good time (without unnecessarily slowing the game down). A dealer like this will see a $2 tip turn into a $3 tip. Or a $5 tip turn into an $8 tip. I find that most rooms have 2-3 dealers at most who fit this criteria.

2. I know the dealer personally. As a fellow dealer, there are quite a few dealers in other rooms who I've worked alongside, attended dealer school with, or have a personal relationship with due to common friends. I'll over-tip these dealers, even by my own standards. I steal the blinds on a $2-5 table and I split the pot with the dealer. I profit $200 on a hand and I tip the dealer a green chip. I'll also include dealers who play in my room where I work and who tip well will receive bigger than average tips from me when I go to their workplace.

3. Bigger pots = bigger tips. This is true for any dealer, regardless of whether I know them or not.

I'm not a dealer. I've never even had any job where tips were part of my pay.

To be honest, I really cannot think of any dealer that I know of out there that does not meet the baseline level of skill that bolt mentions. I'd imagine management figures out who cannot cut it much faster than I do, and the unskilled dealers don't last long enough for me to notice.

However, some dealers do have personalities that I like more than others. For them the differences in what I tip are very subtle. It might take a smaller pot threshold for me to give them a second or third dollar ($3 is my max tip for any non splash pot, high hand, BBJP, etc.). Also, I might be more likely to give them a buck in a chopped pot, when I win a side pot but not the main pot, or if I've stolen the blinds a couple times during their down. Admittedly, it's much closer to a robotic $1 than a whole lot of differentiation.

Lester,

Your argument was much better when you were saying you didn't want to tip because you'd rather have the money yourself. Saying you play faster or whatever and should tip less is grasping at straws.

The irony here is this is the opposite argument most dealers make for never abolishing tipping; that is, management does not have the ability to figure out who are unskilled and leave it to the players to tip less. I agree that this is false; customer complaints and a Cat5 cable to track hands per dealer is all you need. Complaints and productivity... seems to work in every other field.

If a dealer pushes the loser the pot and it becomes indistinguishable from the player's stack and the dealer has to recreate the hand and action to figure out how much was in the pot so he can push it to you, do you tip here? You've never encountered this or burn and turns or anything?

Oh please. Every room has dealers that don't meet that baseline level of skill that bolt described.

Not in my experience. In almost every room I've ever played in there's at least one awful dealer. Slow, inattentive, confused as to what the action is, etc. Usually more than one.


I think one of the problems with this is that management doesn't give a ****. The real amount of difference in the rake/house income isn't worth their time and or effort.

So, in other words, what you are really saying is: "What matters is: What's in it for me?"

You and him are both saying the exact same thing. DUCY?

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I read your post twice (guess I'm bored) and I still don't C Y. Maybe you can make your next post a little less cryptic. What's your point?

Tipping is a zero-sum game.

If you are submitting the dealer's point of view of his bottom line ($ earned per down/shift/week/month/year) as valid argument, then,

You must also allow a player to submit his point of view of his bottom line ($ earned per session/week/month/year) as valid argument.


A player's "What's in it for me?" is every bit a valid as the dealer's "What's in it for me?"


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Never stiff the dealer completely, I used to work in a tip based job and a dollar or two goes a lonnnnnng way for your reputation in the Card room.

Of course all dealers make mistakes. That doesn't make all of them bad dealers. Just like we all (including myself) make mistakes when we play. That doesn't mean we are all (again, including myself) bad players. The key in anything is minimizing your mistakes. I can't think of any dealer that I would say makes them consistently enough for me to call them a bad dealer.

I don't remember ever seeing this specific situation you described. That would probably be a situation where I might or might not tip depending on who the dealer was, but I'd imagine most of the time I wouldn't.

A couple of caveats:

I'm not actively trying to evaluate the dealer's performance. I'd imagine the difference between a good dealer and a bad one can be very subtle, just like a good player and a bad player. I'd rather use my efforts to evaluate the other players than worry about the dealer. So I guess it's possible (but not probable) that if the same dealers really are consistently making the same mistakes, I'm just not noticing.

The only casino I've ever played at more than few times is Rivers in Pittsburgh. So, I guess my opinions would only apply there. If I remember correctly fromaggio, I think I've seen you comment on the Rivers page in the subforum. I'd be curious who you thought there doesn't meet the baseline skills. I realize you can't post their names here but why don't you (or any other Rivers player) send me a PM.

The differences between a good player are dramatic and not subtle. Same can be said between a good dealer and bad dealer. Your argument that bad dealers don't exist is quite absurd. The bottom 10% of most professions are going to be incompetent.

I never said bad dealers don't exist, at least not on purpose. If I actually did, please quote me and I will retract.

What happened was that I was asked a question

I answered that I don't have a specific dealer in mind whose level of skill is low enough to make me want to lower the tip scale for them because of their lack of skill.

A followup question asked me

I did make a point answering that question that a single mistake does not make a bad dealer. If you interpreted that as me saying bad dealers don't exist, that is not what I meant.

a decent amount of vegas dealers also work the wsop and just bust there ass for those 6 weeks.obviously they're making decent money or they wouldnt do it.

of course there are horrible dealers who still have their job. the borgata is extremely well run and even they have 3-4 awful dealers who have been there since the room was downstairs.

i go to vegas 2-3 times a year and there are probably about 5 at the bellagio who are beyond terrible and have been there at least 5 years.anyone who has played there knows of the dealer who not only deals slower than anyone on earth and occasionally falls asleep in the box but seems juiced in.

don't even get me started on a play like the commerce.

while i think coming up with systems to tip 83 cents an hour is ridiculous, so is tipping horrible dealers.

i would love to play where you play, but it doesnt seem like you play anywhere resembling reality.

I think making a comparison of a situation where one makes a mistake based on incomplete information (e.g., failed poker decision) with one who makes a mistake with 100% complete information (i.e., both hands tabled and the pot goes to the wrong player) is a pretty poor rationalization of a significant job error.

What if the player does have complete information? I've seen players muck winning hands after all of the action is complete and the other players have tabled inferior hands. Or the player who calls on the river with a made straight, only to realize he misread his own hand, which is actually a 10 high.

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Then this still does not absolve a dealer from doing his or her job well. Professional players that make such errors don't last very long. The same can't be said for dealers.

Fair enough, but what about these kind of player mistakes?

Hero calls villain's all in bet post flop with QQ on 9 high board, After turn and river villain turns over his hand and has A9 (which turns out to be exactly what hero puts him on). Queens holds up. However hero inexplicably throws his winning hand into the muck.

Hero says all in on what he thinks is a $40 cbet, not noticing the $200 in greens the villain had. Villain calls with a set.

Hero bets river with AQ. Villain calls and turns his A2 face up on a Q3452 board. Hero thinks he's half showing a big fold, half frustrated about the river duece counterfeiting him and mucks his hand without even waiting for dealer to push him the pot.

I was hero in all 3 situations. Do these 3 hands by themselves make me a donkey? I know it's not a perfect analogy, but all 3 hands I royally screwed up with complete information available.


PS. Believe it or not, I typed this long before your bolt's question and your response. I just never hit submit. When I picked my computer back up and hit preview post, I saw you pretty much already answered my question. Does this mistake, by itself mean I'm not capable of posting on an internet forum.

What argument are you trying to make? Yes, many players play very poorly and/or muck winning hands or do other things to hurt themselves. In almost all instances, they are hurting only themselves. These players are welcome at the table.

Dealers that consistently make mistakes are causing players that should win the pot to lose the pot. They are generally not welcome at a table.

Defining "good" and "bad" is going to be subjective from person to person. Measure it based on frequency of mistake/pot or whatever. Some will be higher than others and the dealers that are making a lot of mistakes are generally the ones thought of "bad".

Good question. My point is that there is no SPECIFIC dealer that I can think of that makes mistakes frequently. I can honestly not think of any SPECIFIC dealer that would make me worry that during their down there is an unacceptable risk of them causing the wrong player to win the pot. I'm not saying they are not out there, I'm just saying I couldn't name any particular one.

Why did I even mention this point in this thread? I was asked if I differentiate my tips based on a dealer's skill and I answered. The answer mentioned that I have not run into a dealer whose SKILLS are poor enough for me use that as a reason to lower their tip.

So I got flamed for saying this and given examples of mistakes a dealer could potentially make. Yes, I understand dealers do make mistakes. They have occurred when I have been at the table, and sometimes even in the hand.

However, I can accept and understand this is going to happen every once in a while. Just like I mistakes I make at the table, and away, whether or not I have complete information. I don't beat myself up for making these mistakes, I just try to make them happen infrequently. Just like I don't hold it against dealers when they make a mistake, as long as those mistakes happen infrequently enough.

Sorry guys, but I just would not be able name any dealer that makes mistakes with any degree of frequency, even if twoplustwo would let me.

Perhaps a better way to put it is that, though they might prefer the John Jones types, wiser dealers (who have the sense to realize they can't always have their cake and eat it too) don't mind the Fast Freddy types as they are at least aware of their intrinsic value.

Here we go again. "I like my money and you can't make me give it away". Dude, I don't deny this. For people to insist that something along these lines be used as a disclaimer to my posts is (as I've seen the kids use it in forums and if I'm correctly understanding the context) thread AIDS. The reality is the justifications bother some people because they'd prefer players to just dummy up and tip. In case a player were to put some thought into tipping, they are less likely to be influenced by "I'm just cheap and I don't want to tip" compared to actual reasons to ponder. Reminds me of that Planet of the Apes movie w/ James Franco. There's a line in it something like "humans don't like smart apes". Similar concept applies where 'dealers don't like smart players'.


I was asked a question and provided an answer.
The answer was provided on the fly and I made it clear that I do not stand by it's accuracy. While there are too many variables to measure it accurately, the point was that there is indeed an impact even if it appears rather negligible on the surface.

So I came up with 3 extra hands and you came up with .83 extra hands per hour (based on 30 hands/hr). With your numbers, at $1 a hand I still effectively have an impact that doubles my tip rate of this year. That projects to dealers getting paid ~$19/hr with my contribution (directly from my tips plus extra tip opportunities and including their wage) which ain't bad (at least nowhere near as bad as the dealer might have been thinking when he didn't get the instant gratification of a $1 tip upon the 1st pot he pushed me). And I still don't stand by that accuracy either.

3 extra hands per hour... so if I was dealing a 10 handed game to Lester and 9 other Lester clones, I could expect to deal 60 hands per hour? After all, each player is generating an extra 3 hands/hour. And I suppose that also projects to $19/hr that I'm earning in tips?

Sounds about right to me...