Basically this. I too, will avoid unnecessary tipping situations, and much of that has to do with the principle that I don't want to tip for a service that I am fully capable of and would prefer doing myself. And often if/when I could do it myself, it's done exactly to my liking and better and/or more efficiently than the service I'm expected to tip for. In many cases, the 'service' is a hindrance. This is a major reason why I stress that any tips received ought to be appreciated no matter the amount, because receiving tips for providing a 'service' is essentially a privilege.

Again, I'm not arguing for/against tipping generally. I'm pointing out that it's unethical for you to use a service for which tips are the norm and then not tip.

You're not stingy or cheap. The guy who tips quarters is stingy or cheap. You're unethical.

That, but also you know that a tip is expected when you put yourself in those situations -AND- you've voluntarily put yourself in those situations.

You and AT are thinking in terms of rules / laws. I'm thinking in terms of ethics and societal norms.

The bottom line is if you don't want to participate in tipping, great! Then don't avail yourself of services for which tips are expected. It's that easy.

You don't just say something or someone is unethical (the easy part) and that I'm committing a wrong, and then back out of arguing and making a case for why (the hard part).

That's just... I don't know, lazy? Being a politician? Come on, I didn't start with the ethical bit.

An ethic is a moral rule or law (or system thereof), from which national laws are then derived from (that's a whole different discussion). A norm is an expected rule of behaviour. Norms are subordinate to laws, moral or otherwise (do I need to explain this part?). Tipping is a norm, since tipping (as it's in the US) is a societal expectation, not a rule, law or contract (such as the contract of, "I will pay you x dollars, and you will give me item y"). Not tipping then becomes an act of non-conformity to the norm. Therefore, tipping is not subjected to an ethical standard and the rightness or wrongness of it can't be measured ethically.

Therefore, you cannot argue that the act of tipping (or not tipping) is an ethical one (or unethical act, if not tipping).

Only if an agreement (contract) is established, then does morality enter into it (the nature of the contract and whether or not its upheld, and miscellaneous situations where the morality can be argued either way based on conditions that may arise). Example: tip-only employees (no wage). You still need to show how the act of tipping itself is an act of morality, because I've just argued how it's not. Only then can you say that by not tipping am I being unethical. If tipping is an act of morality, then so is buying a chocolate bar from a quick store.

Remember that I am not actively harming (an unethical act) their bottom line, because even proponents of this system admittedly say that it's optional. If it's optional, and if I opt out, you cannot say that I've actively done harm, i.e., acted unethically.

This has already been covered. The onus is on the employer. Because their employer pays them a ****ty wage for doing a job, it does not make me an unethical actor in this situation for not participating in some norm which has developed around the service person getting the worst of it.

You can tell me it's a norm/custom that people in the US and... I think that's about it... participate in, and that I should participate also, because "when in Rome, blah blah.. social capital, something something, make people happy." But don't say that I must participate in this custom, because it is the ethical thing to do. If you're not aware that this is flat-out wrong, then saying this is disingenuous. I have every right as a paying customer to be at a restaurant with waitstaff. It doesn't make it wrong for me to be at that restaurant for leaving what's the between the employer and their employees to themselves.

Not sure if trolling.

And if you don't tip the waitstaff don't expect stellar service on future visits.

The fear of not getting tipped (read: being paid an appropriate amount for the service provided) is what drives good customer service. Sure, there are thresholds of which a service provider must meet to maintain employment, but they are motivated to work hard and do a good job so that they don't lose money by having tips withheld.

You are withholding tips, not to show your displeasure of the service provided, but to be cheap and save money in cases where you are not contractually obligated to give.

You can try to justify not tipping with your black/white analysis and shift the "blame" to "the system", but all you're doing is underpaying for services. You're taking advantage of the system that society has in place. The only way I would grant you being ethical in your non-tipping at a restaurant would be to be up front with the server about how they are not going to be tipped and that you require the bare minimum service (because you're not paying the same as everyone else for the same level of service you expect). And you can argue that everyone should be given the same amount of service, but in your perfect world of non-tipping, you and other non-tippers are the only ones that would be losing out. Most people would be paying the same for their services/goods/whatever, while a few extravagant tippers pay less, and now you're forced to pay more.


The rationalization doesn't work out. You don't really want a non-tipping society. You just want to take advantage of how it works under the guise of "I wish it wasn't this way". It's hypocritical.

Not quite. It's more like 'As it is (and will remain) this way, I will take advantage of it'. As it stands, employers take advantage of how it works by paying whatever below minimum wages. Employees who work for tips as the majority of their wages, take advantage because the whatever below minimum wage + patron tips is greater than the equivalent job with whatever above minimum wage without tips. Most patrons who tip at an average or above average rate are really being taken advantage of. It's not that cheap tippers 'wish it wasn't this way', they just adapt to the way it is in a manner that they can take advantage. What's hypocritical is for one who receives tips to take advantage of naive patrons who tip lavishly, then essentially shun cheap tipping patrons who also take advantage under the same rules.

You're sorely mistaken if you don't think better tippers aren't treated better anywhere they go that has a history with them. They're not being taken advantage of as you seem to think, but it shows where your mindset is for sure...

Try it next time you go on a "vacation". Valet, use the bell service, and whatever dining service is being used, use it more than once, and see how much better you get treated than your normal trips. You obviously are not of the social norm if the warm treatment and attention you get doesn't make you have a better experience. It's totally worth a couple of extra bucks, seriously, and you don't have to "lavishly tip", just tip more than the norm and you'll see the difference.



Or maybe instead of measuring your life by the experiences you have, you're just using your bank account to keep score, in which case, enjoy the anti-social path you've chosen. At least you made your own decision to be like that, so I guess that's worth something in itself.

Can we all agree that better tippers are almost without a doubt happier people?

I know a guy that tips a green check every pot. He's a pretty miserable person. I also know some nitty people that subtract tax from the bill and tip a straight 15% or less, and it's a pretty even mix of happy and unhappy.

I don't see the connection. I do think that when people are on a roll and running hot, tipping exorbitant amounts, they generally seem happy, but I've always equated that to winning lots of money in a session and nothing related to their tipping practices.

It's an obvious lock that this is the case, but prepare for the hatorade flowing in your direction from the oh-so-happy anti tipping crowd.

I'm not anti-tipping, but I just don't see the correlation. I see guys running hot, tipping lots and very happy. I then see the same guys the next week, losing, tipping average and not very happy.

I think trying to asses someone's happiness away from the table, based on their tipping practices while they are gambling, is pretty faulty. For most people gambling is very emotional, so it's difficult to draw parallels (at least for me).

That said, build a case for it. If it's an obvious lock, then this should be easy to do because the only thing I'm able to asses at the table is how people handle losing significant amounts of money. Like alcoholics, big downswings reveal a person's true character, I think.

Interesting twist.

I don't deny that there are such instances where better tippers are 'treated better'. And I acknowledge that my perception may be 'obviously not of the social norm' because I do not require extra warm treatment and attention from random people to make me feel better. While I'm content to park my own car and handle my own luggage, the masses might feel better to have somebody else do menial tasks for them. The 'societal normal' folks will gladly pay to have people kiss their ass in order for themselves to feel special. The ass kissers take advantage by creating this false sense of importance. Now, though this might have been a harsh explanation, I do not intend for this to be taken as if there's anything wrong with it. Good for those people who are made to feel special with extra attention and good for those who get extra tips for accommodating. I just think it's a shame that some don't understand where the hypocrisy lies when the occasional patron might take advantage of a system that takes advantage. It's like all is well when the routine has the tip receiver taking advantage of patrons, after all that's what the tipping model is designed to do, but how dare the rare patron take advantage of the tip receiver.

As for me personally, my bank account ultimately does prevail over a false sense of importance from strangers. Particularly if these strangers might consider it anti-social if I prefer not to have them kiss my ass. I'll be respectful, say please and thank you, spare them unnecessary effort, and in doing so I'm cooperative in helping make their job easier. I'm not going to 'take care of them' at the 'societal normal' level, but I'm also not going to take advantage in the sense that I'm demanding far beyond my fair share.

Better tippers seem to be happier people. It's an intended perception, but not necessarily correlated to generally happy or unhappy people.

Just like tip receivers might seem to be great people. They could warm you up if there's tips involved, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are or are not honest and kind outside of work.

I do agree that "buying treatment" is a big grey area. Some people like it, some people don't. It's the reason I don't go to strip clubs. They don't want me...they want my money. I'm not in the mindset of where paying for sexual gratification (whatever level that would be considered) is anything I'm interested in. It doesn't do it for me. I don't want people to be fake to me.

Thanks for not going ballistic in our disagreement

Ah ha, strip clubs, there's an analogy that makes a point easily understood.

Since there's no mathematical data that's going to quantify for me how "happy" someone is, I'm going to back the statement by stating that it's what I see with my own eyes.

Here's some stuff I read before I made my original post using "unethical" to see if my use of the word was appropriate in this circumstance.

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Ethics_vs_Morals

http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-the-...#didyouknowout

By showing up at a restaurant with tipped waitstaff or a poker room with tipped dealers, you either pay what's socially acceptable in terms of tips or you're freeloading. There's a wide range of what's acceptable, but zero is not within that range if you receive acceptable service.

Freeloading is unethical because society dictates that you tip tipped staff for acceptable service.

Put another way, you might have a legal right to be at a restaurant with tipped waitstaff if you're going to stiff the staff, but to do so is unethical because society says so.

On a personal note, I don't care whether you're unethical when it comes to tipping. I'd just think you're a cheapskate if you were to not tip if you came to the US and received acceptable service here. No big deal. But it sounds like you might care, so that's why I took the time to correct you on this issue.

It's been a long time since I've posted here (my old Username wouldn't even let me log in), but when I read this thread and the current discussion about whether or not good tippers are generally happier people or not, I decided to chime in. While reading the past few posts two players immediately came to mind. Both tipped very well and seemed to be really gregarious guys. Both of them suddenly, at least to us in the poker room, killed themselves. After nearly 20 years of doing this, I have learned that the personna that most people display in the casino or cardroom is seldom a true representation of who they are outside. I'm sure there are many exceptions, just thought I would add my perceptions to the discussion.

If you really think about it, the tipping culture provides natural environments to spawn overcompensation. Plenty of these happy go lucky generous tippers are merely creating a perception while in the moment but otherwise might be generally miserable douchebags in other aspects of their lives. Familiar with Matt Marafioti and how he boasts about his tipping habits? This guy is a classic example of one who overcompensates due to character flaws.

You're right, it does. But that's terrible, and it shouldn't be the primary motive (fear of not getting paid) for doing your job. Like fear of getting fired shouldn't be the main reason you should go listen to your boss and complete your duties and meet your work responsibilities.

OK, I'm not sure if you read my post earlier, or just skimmed it. You're introducing a new variable, which then allows for morality to be factored in: exploitation.

Yes, if I manipulate the "system" whereby I receive extraordinary service and then not tip, I'm being exploitative, and thus unethical. It would be like if I hinted at or straight-up duped the server by suggesting or telling them that they will receive a good tip, then I just pay the bill, get exact change, and walk out. That would be unethical.

But if I say hello, please and thank you, place my order (and say nothing else), eat my food, pay the bill and leave without a tip, then how can you say that I've done something unethical?

I'm not seeing any arguments that try to show how the previous sentence above means that the patron is being unethical. It's just, "he doesn't tip, ergo he's unethical."

wat

How did you go from A to B? You guys are missing some crucial steps here.

You're right that the current system is exploitable by hypocrites, but Lester Kluke basically said what I was going to say.

This is the correct play for non-tippers. The moment you expect more than the standard level of service. Things like basic politeness, decency and just doing the simple job of taking orders and bringing things to the tables. (I don't want to hear about how difficult the waiting job is. The toughest thing they have to do is deal with neurotic, narcissistic, self-absorbed and entitled brats. And it's just easy to ignore all that crap, write a note on the changed order, and just bring a different plate of food. Not complicated, just menial work. Tipped jobs aren't the only places where workers deal with ****ty people. Everybody else deals with it without handouts.)

I'm not sure if my points are being misunderstood or ignored (possibly both?). I honestly do care about being understood, so that my arguments and position aren't misrepresented (this is why tangents happen so easily, and people speak past one another). Please specify what quote you're replying to. Edits like, "foreigner being furious," is unnecessarily condescending, while "snip" doesn't mean anything (what part is being snipped and replied to anyway?).

As for your point about "freeloading," yes, "freeloading," as I believe I understand you, is unethical. That is, the idea that you take advantage of and exploit a situation/person so that you receive something with cost to another and no cost to yourself.

Now what you need to do here is explain to the non-tipping party how receiving standard and typical service is freeloading. What's the standard? I don't know, you tell me. But I know it's not a rude and blunt, "you there, what are you having? Mm hm, OK got it." *walks off*...

The expectation of tips on behalf of the server is not what makes this freeloading, because that is simply another wording of, "the societal norm is what makes this freeloading." And that in itself is simply creating labels to identify non-conformers to the norm. "Oh, he's just a cheapskate and a freeloader." To the conforming members it easily says, "that guy doesn't do what we do," but it says it in a way that intends to ostracize and outcast. In short, it's name-calling that doesn't add anything.

By the way, the first link doesn't describe ethics properly, because it pigeonholes it into a societal framework (it's not limited to that). The second link outlines it better.

This is a bit of a copout since you said it's an "obvious lock". I think Lester has stated better than I why we think your eyes may be playing tricks on you.

I'm not sure I buy the two guys killing themselves (unless he meant these were unrelated incidents), but the new poster stated it perfectly when he said, "After nearly 20 years of doing this, I have learned that the personna that most people display in the casino or cardroom is seldom a true representation of who they are outside. I'm sure there are many exceptions..."

That has been my experience, as well. If anything, we should be using restaurant tipping as the barometer and not people tipping while they're gambling.

I agree with this, but it's all contingent on the acceptable service part. I no longer tip unprofessional or incompetent dealers. I used to as a default due to social norms, but that will never help ameliorate the problem, so I'm willing to look like cheapskate at times in order to receive acceptable service. It has worked for me personally, as well. I think that's due to the fact that the dealers I do tip, I tip well.

I think the problem is that you have somehow convinced yourself that tipping is only for extraordinary service. Servers aren't doing some magical show of jumping through rings of fire. They do their job, and if they don't suck at it, you tip them. The "bare minimum" is treating the customer respectfully and being cordial and not making mistakes (and correcting them if there are any). That is what they do to "earn" that tip. When they don't perform their task properly, then yes, I agree they don't deserve a tip.

You even said that you would be taking advantage of the system if you didn't tip after receiving extraordinary service. But you're moving the bar of standards to suit your own ideas. You say:

You ARE manipulating the system when you don't tip when they have done nothing substandard. That 20% tip thing (15?, whatever) is to pay them for their service. That is what the system calls for your average service. You ARE freeloading if the server did nothing wrong and you are withholding money from them. I'm really unsure how you cannot see that. I really don't want to feel like we're "talking past each other" like you mentioned, but I think in this case you have somehow twisted reality to fit your personal wants/preference.


Now if this instead comes down to you thinking servers make too much money for the task they perform and so you're saving money they you don't feel they deserve, then that's a different argument and one I cannot argue against. But your rationalizations provided thus far in this thread are not as sound as you think they are.

My solution to balancing ethics and morals is a compromise of sorts. I'll coin the term as bargainloading.

Then make it a legally mandatory duty fee that is universal. I withholding **** all in actuality. Put it on the bill, add it to their wages, I don't care. But don't put it as a blank fee that's left up to the customer. That is where the exploitation and unfairness and what have you occurs so easily.

Imagine how that would work across all businesses, if prices were left blank for all goods and services, and that costs were merely ballpark custom amounts agreed upon by society as a whole. Also, you had the option to pay nothing! Imagine this is how it worked for paycheques as well. The employer gives you something they feel is fair, and again they have the option to give you nothing.

This would be pure madness and absurdity. That very same thing is exactly what's happening in the tipping culture, but people have been conditioned to accept it and not challenge it, not to mention defend it against criticism and give special labels to critics (cheap, stingy, freeloader).

That is what I find incredible. This is just a small, almost meaningless facet of cultural thinking and psychology. Imagine trying to challenge the bigger ideas.... You'd need miracles or surgical propaganda for success. I mean, here I'm arguing for the benignly simple and sensible thing, and people are aghast. It's kind of interesting in a philosophically curious kind of way, actually.