I'm not sure I understand this.

I don't play BBJ games, but this doesn't prevent me from hypothesizing.

You insinuate, partially correctly that being a dealer means I will tip larger than normal. In low limit games this is true. I, and most dealers, do tip larger than the avg. And when I played for a living, I tipped less, but still tipped on every pot over say 5 BB's or so. And I still wasn't opposed to tip a little more in larger pots, but that was by choice, my choice, and I only did it with good dealers. Quality dealers got larger tokes.

That being said you are suggesting a truly life changing event for a 1-2, 1-3nl player. On your hypothetical 200k bink, a $5k toke is only 2.5%, and there is personal joy in knowing that I could have a positive affect on the dealers' life.

My choice, and I feel good about it.

1 caveat: It would be painful as hell and I would probably not go so high on a dealer I know is terrible. I do toke even the worst skilled dealers, but never more than a buck. Mostly I just lobby when they deal. So if it was someone that should have retired or never even been a dealer, I'd have a hard time toking more than a couple hundo, and probably would in fact limit myself accordingly.

I find it interesting that, in the exchange with Hardball, it's been claimed that not tipping *reduces* service, yet the argument for tipping is that the fear of not getting tipped should encourage *better* service.

Seems like the incentive doesn't actually work once the sense of entitlement sinks in.

You could also give me $5k, it will give you personal joy to know that you'd be having a positive effect on my life.

My brother too.

No, I didn't at all. You said a cheap tip implies: "Thanks for the life changing event. Here's $50."

I said that I understand you're a dealer, but you dealing a BBJ has nothing to do with you, so thanking the dealer for $200K seems ridiculous. You have no control over a BBJ being dealt or dealing a 989:1 beat on a player. The cards are random and you pitch them. That's it.

I will say, I do realize dealers tip larger than average. There's only one instance I remember where this wasn't the case. Two dealers hit a BBJ on a stud table. I think the big end was $10K and she tipped $5. This was told (complained) to us on our table by the man in the box.

i think the commentary that the dealer should get $5,000 on a bbj hit is ridiculous

i would probably tip the dealer $1,000 & say "this can help you go on a good vacation or buy something nice"

IMO that is above/beyond generous

No kidding. Kinda like this hypothetical bigger tip on winning $200K. Using this logic of tipping on a scale based on winning, then most players should not be tipping because most players are losing players. Some of the reasons to tip are so loaded with irony. And since one reason to tip is based on quality of service, when the idea to tip well for current service or be subject to poor service next time is introduced (i.e. some driving forces behind a service are hypocritical), then service that is accompanied with underlying threats can be considered poor quality and deserving of lesser tips.

Realistically, much of the reasons given to tip are irrational. And the simplistic reason not to tip, basic economical behavior (i.e. electing to pay $X instead of $X + $Y for the same product), is the only thing that makes perfect rational sense.

That being said, contrary to popular misconceptions, my 'stance' is not anti-tipping. Sure, I am a self proclaimed 'cheapskate', though observant individuals might be able to distinguish this as partially genuine and partially hyperbolic. I guess you could even say I'm a hypocritical cheapskate. Basically, as some have used the term 'interesting' recently to describe a tipping discussion, I agree, and I try to look at it as an economist would and psychologist would while using philosophical perspectives and go beyond the simplicity of merely conforming to societal norms: 'I patronize, therefor I tip' or 'I serve, therefor I am to be tipped'.

Actually he said what he'd do in that situation.

Right, he did say what he'd do in that situation. But do you really not see how the purpose of that particular post is not merely somebody sharing what they would tip in that situation? Should I break down the context of the post and the reasoning for the inclusion of... ...?

Ok then, it was an attempt to guilt trip players into a belief of finding a $5K tip to be reasonable (i.e. a pathetic attempt to encourage bigger tips). That instead of considering what $5K might mean to the individual (after all, they just received a $200K windfall so $5K is chump change by comparison), a failure to consider what it could mean to a dealer and allow that to influence a massive tip is selfish. It's not some noble cause where he's trying to do his part to combat selfishness either. IOW, it's less about how he himself would be generous in that player's spot, and more about how he as a dealer would be better off to have players think that way. What comes from the minds of some irrational tip receivers: you're selfish if you don't share the wealth, but there's certainly nothing selfish about insinuating that those with the wealth ought to share with us. Yup, hypocrisy again.


Am I exactly right in my comprehension of the post's underlying meanings? Perhaps not entirely (after all, that was never said). But am I in the ballpark? Yes, with some of the best seats in the house.

Not even in the right city let alone ballpark son.

you stated that a $5,000 tip on the hypothetical $200,000 hit would be reasonable to you

my only point in posting was that amount was unreasonable to me

sorry for the misunderstanding

anyway, we all know that you want poker players to be generous with dealer tips

there are clear divisions amongst the posters in this thread with respect to tipping & we will never agree

Again, I think he was saying that a lot of people are selfish and he doesn't want to be one of them. You're reading too much into other people's posts to serve the purpose of "bargainloading" or whatever.

He wasn't addressing your post; your post made perfect sense. I also think $5k is unreasonable, but that's just me. But despite the fact that I'd never even consider tipping $5k on a $200k BBJ, I liked BFH's reasoning.

And the bolded is why this thread keeps going! As long as we can do it without namecalling and what not (I think only hardball has come close recently), it's all in good fun.

So I have been thinking. What about 0.25%? If everyone at the table tips 0.25% on a $400k bbj that's $1,000 total for the dealer.

*(This is assuming 50% to loser, 25% to winner and 25% spread out to the other players)

FYI, it kind of puts things out of context when posts that were part of a dialogue are removed due to comments stepping out of line.

Even moderators make mistakes. Sometimes skimming the surface causes one to miss what is said in a post. But fully grasping context sometimes make it apparent that what is literally said and what is meant can differ. As such, comes the realization that the above is backwards.

FYP

But now that you might know (or do you?) that bfh's reasoning is actually selfishness disguised as nobility, do you still like it or is this a comment you would prefer to retract? Like or dislike is a matter of opinion so either way is fine. But I'm just assuming that acknowledgement of being misled would alter an opinion.

I too prefer to have the discussion continue without insults. And if you get why I call myself a cheapskate, you might get the purpose I am trying to serve. It's not because I consider it a particularly endearing term. It is actually derogatory and can be perceived as insulting. But I have no shame in being value conscious (or a cheapskate) and I try to emphasize that being a cheapskate is nothing to be ashamed of. So by calling myself a cheapskate, it defuses the insulting ability of calling somebody a cheapskate. There was a time ITT when the terms like cheapskate were being flung around like insults. I'm not noticing that lately though and maybe it has something to do with self proclaiming myself as a 'cheapskate'. Basically, my view towards tipping is that cheapness is ok and generosity is ok. But generosity accompanied with disdain for cheapness is not ok. And vice versa, cheapness with disdain for generosity is not ok. (And don't confuse finding a $5K type tip to be unreasonable as disdain, it is merely rational economic sense)

This IMO would be very fair and is a pretty good suggestion, but I imagine your average dealer and floor person would be thinking of a considerably higher total number.

I think 1k is more than adequate, but I would bet if that amount came from just the winner that the employees would be talking about him being cheap behind his back, let alone if that was the amount that came from the whole table.

Tipping used properly will improve the quality of service that you and all others will receive in the long run.

You provide additional $ for a behavior that you want and that person should look to repeat the behavior for the additional $. Others will copy.

On the other hand, if you get unfavorable behavior then you should not tip and you will drive that person from the market.

We should tip the same gross amount but direct it to the providers of good service only.

I have never seen any player tip $2/hand to above avg dealers, $1/hand to avg dealers and $0/hand to below avg dealers. Never.

And if one came along, nobody would follow suit.

Yes, the concept of tipping driving out bad dealers and making average dealers work to become better dealers is a myth.

I agree with angus. I crush most dealers and rarely get performance based tips. It just doesn't happen. Tips come when you push pots. I get more because of volume.

My non-insider view of what gets dealers better tips at low-stakes recreational games in approximate order of importance:

1. Personality
2. Boobs
3. Volume
4. Quality

Kinda sad.

On the other hand, having played in rooms where dealers share tips with the entire casino, I'm pretty sure there is a BIG correlation between dealer quality and tip sharing. Or my small sample size playing in places with shared tips is statistically inadequate. Folks simply try harder when they know it will likely impact their income.

Dealing with tip sharing becomes one of those jobs where there is no upside to trying harder. Put out 9 hands per down with a couple misdeals along the way and you make the same as the dealer working up a sweat and doing it perfectly. Frown, complain, bring the players down, and you still make the same as the dealer who perks up the table when they sit.

We should all know that tip sharing is suicide-murder for everyone involved.

You're not looking at it like a psychologist in any way. You're trying as hard as you can to make yourself feel ok about yourself when you are basically a cheap douchebag that every employee in the room you play in hates dealing to and dealing with. You keep saying there's a psychological reason for not tipping enough,so you'll feel better about it.. Nothing more, nothing less. Just trying in anyway to justify being a tightwad stiff.

How much again did you say someone should tip on a $200K BBJ?

Ok so let's look at this from a different angle. We take tipping completely out of society. As stated in previous posts, prices will go up. Then you receive less the acceptable service, now you want a discount right? Well you can't cause you have no control anymore. When before you could tip less. These same people will be complaining about a whole new set of problems. No system is perfect. Also every system has flaws. Plus no matter what system is in place you will have people try to use the system against itself for personal gain. So all of these arguments are futile. Just a way for you guys to try to one up each other. Cause no matter what system is in place you guys will find a way to argue why it's somehow not fair.

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Here is the perfect system - no tipping! Rakes should be raised & let the room management deal with which dealers should stay or go. Players will go to rooms that are managed well. Well managed rooms will prosper & poorly managed rooms will close. It's called capitalism.