I think it's more related to timing. She can't storm the dreadfort with her crew, it's more a long the lines of a Navy SEALs special ops crew than an army.

Nope, at the end of last season Bran sent him and the Harry Potter chick I'm forget her name to GreatJon Umber's HQ which is apparently right by the wall close to where they were at the time.

Until we hear or see otherwise I think it's safe to assume they made it there.

Lol Harry Potter chick? Do you mean Osha the wildling girl?

Yeah she was in one of the Harry Potter movies.

I thought the went to Castle Black? If that's the case I would've expected a little Rickon Jon reunion.

I didn't realize she was in a HP movie. Thought maybe you meant she looked like Emma Watson or whatever her name is.

I'm not sure if this is clear. Is there any more indication than the dungeon conversation between Varys and Illyrio?

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying, but looking at this scene it doesn't seem like either Varys or Illyrio is trying to make Jorah intervene. Jorah is getting a royal pardon from Varys. He doesn't even open the letter, but like I said before I think he knows that it means Dany is about to die and that he's served his purpose as a spy.

Aside from that I think it's a pretty good theory. It wouldn't surprise me if Varys is a level above or at the same level as LF. Still not sure what that level would be exactly and what his motivations are.

Not in the show, no. But it's a valid assumption for the viewer to make, since Illyrio gave her the eggs.

And we know Illyrio and Varys are close allies? Varys has a lot of connection and to me it wasn't clear what kind of relationship he has to Illyrio.

The "we're not ready yet" part made it sound like maybe they were conspiring to create chaos in Westeros for Danaerys return. If Westeros is split and in chaos it would make her way back to the throne easier.

I wouldn't say that's clear and the fact that we have been shown no indication that Illyrio or Varys intervened in the assassination attempt on Daenerys I think the meaning of that conversation is up in the air.

Per Green- I just feel like Illyrio knew exactly what those eggs would do and that her and her brother would use them to go to Westeros/KL with them. It's quite clear from the show that Illyrio/Varys are deeply tied together. So what I mean is that Varys/Illyrio (assuming moving as one "person" or have united motives per se IE same team) knowingly give the eggs, know what they can do, know that Varys has to keep face in KL IE agreeing to kill Dany. Varys then tells Illyrio or Jorah (via his birds etc) the plan. Now the key part here is that when Jorah "saves" her it basically just cements his trust to her. Now we don't know, maybe he was truly in love with her. We can't really confirm that as it's likely to be true. But he could also be in love with her, be working with Illyrio/Varys and start to grow conflicting feelings or running the long con. He asks to know if he's clear or not. The problem is though that Selmy can be lying and Jorah has no idea, Jorah attempts to soul read Selmy and seems unsure on whether to trust him.

Blue- Yeah, that could be true that they didn't have him intervene, that was deep speculation obviously. In that case then Jorah isn't their spy imo. It seemed almost as though he might've had no idea he was getting pardoned too. But that doesn't make sense cause why would they pardon him if he had no idea? It seems like he had to know the attempt was being put on her, but maybe not at that moment. Cause wouldn't you be like "WTF why do I have a get out of jail free card?" when you haven't done anything you know? Like if someone wanted to offer me money I'd ask what the catch is. Obviously Jorah knows the attempt is coming and the masked woman in Quarth says it to him too.

"Will you betray her again Jorah of the Andals?" or some crap. He obviously knew what he was doing and called the audible. He had to either do it for love or ulterior motives. Obviously on the surface we see love but GoT seems deeper than that. I'd bank on Jorah betraying her in some capacity. To what extent I really don't know or how though.

Re the last paragraph- I agree, there's no way to know the 2nd level as there's no way for us to know as we're deceived by the storytelling and are given no evidence to conclude anything more really.

I guess since I'm deep in some speculations and approved as a (2) book reader. I should clarify I know legit nothing about anything I'm commenting on. I'd hope my word can get taken at face value with this and not cause a derail.

Holla at ya boi

I agree Illyrio likely knew exactly what those eggs were, it's the part about Illyrio/Varys ldo being deeply tied together I disagree with. We've had one scene between them and Illyrio hasn't even been in the show since s1.

Selmy showing up on the opposite side of the globe in support of Dany is really sketchy. Surely he isn't working for the Lannisters, he could be an Illyrio or Varys spy. At least it seems like there's something more to it.

I'm pretty sure there was a scene where Varys says Jorah is working for him. And in the scene I just linked Jorah gets a message from Varys giving him a royal pardon. I think Jorah working for Varys is pretty much confirmed at this point. I think the pardon put him with a decision for all his chips, stay with Dany or go home. I don't think he knew the pardon was coming at that time but I think he knew it was a possibility.

I think that's exactly what happened and Jorah pieced it together. Either he already knew an assassination attempt was coming at some point or he didn't but he figured it out because the only reason they'd let him go home is if they didn't need him to spy on Dany anymore.

I think Jorah sees in Dany a woman who would be a great leader and future queen of Westeros and I think that gives her his loyalty. His love is deeper than "I'd like to hit that".

What ulterior motives would he have anyway? If you think Varys/Illyrio are tight and Jorah is working for them, it seems like he's already indirectly for her because according to your theory Varys/Illyrio supports Dany (right?). Personally I still doubt how deeply invested Varys is in Dany.

Varys wanting Dany dead would completely contradict everything Illyrio setup by giving her the eggs though. Lets not be level 1 and think Illyrio and Varys aren't tight. That seems pretty obvious that they are given only the dungeon scene. I don't think Jorah's love is just to want to hit that, but it's starting to border on obsession. Obsession can become dangerous. Do you expect Jorah to just get brushed aside the whole time? He's basically just her cuckold.

Ulterior motives in trying to gain trust and overtake the throne with Varys/Illyrio. I don't know if they "support" Dany or whether they need her for their plans.

I would say of all the character Varys (or most people are) is the most invested in Dany imo. Her dragons are the gambit in controlling the events in Westeros and they clearly were banking on her and Drogo's kid being born (again the dungeon scene). Also if I'm not mistaken Illyrio is from Braavos too....So it's possible....that he's actually Danaario.....That is literally based on nothing though lmao. Like he could be like Jhaqen or Jhaqen is literally every character

Awfulspeculation is awful lol.

My level of jimmy entanglement should any of my posts get deleted or if I get a pm about these posts might be too high to measure.

I've been doing a S1 rewatch as well, and one thing that seems off to me is the fact Robert is SUPER concerned about Dany. At that time she was substantially less powerful than she is now. Yet somehow nobody is worried about her now, when she has a much more loyal army, actual power, and ever growing dragons. Shouldn't she come up at every small council meeting as oppose to worrying about who Cersei should **** next??

I'm not saying he wants her dead, I'm just saying either 1) he doesn't really care or at the very least 2) it's not a basket where he puts all his eggs (no pun intended).

Level 1 would be that they are tight, because that's what's implied in the dungeon scene. And I'm not saying they are not tight, I don't know one way or the other.

I don't really see their relationship that way. I don't think Daenerrys is using Jorah and I don't think Jorah feels like he's being used. A romance with Daario might get drive a wedge between Dany and Jorah though.

I don't know why you think Varys is most invested in Dany based on that 10 seconds scene. Perhaps because he's the only one who's showed any indication in investment at all. That's still very little. And Illyrio seems much more invested if he counts.

Robert was mainly driven by revenge and I think when he died the focus shifted towards what was seen as more urgent threats like Stannis, Rob Stark and the debt to the Iron Bank (Robert didn't have the former two problems and didn't care about the third because he was a moron). The Lannisters had to get their **** together or they wouldn't even be ruling the seven kingdoms when Dany arrives.

This would even FURTHER indicate that Varys is on Team Dany. So lets say he's the link etc. He knows they have the eggs etc. So that would in turn mean that he LIKELY knows the dragons are born etc. A large ass army of slaves being ensembled, I'm sure the spider knows about it.

Fair enough to the first two. It's not really 10 seconds though, it's the bigger picture. Like in one hand he's saying to kill her in the other he's allied (again we're running with that line of their "friendship") with the person who gave her the tools to take over Westeros. He tells Ned he serves the realm and Dany is arguably the most noble person (next to Tommen imo) who could rule. But he knows the Lannisters ways and what they do with power. Why not poker face KL and have a hidden ally when the **** goes down. So think of it like LF and how he would do it. He benefits when all sides are weaker in a sense. I think Varys/Illyrio were saying they needed more time to cause Dany/Stark and Lannisters to all fight at the same time. He then says we have no more time and the Wolf will soon be in the Lion's mouth. They know full well what's going on/going to happen.

Yeah, I think it def was a lot of revenge for Robert and for why he asked Ned first as he knew Ned was the voice of reason. There was no threat of Stannis or Robb when he was alive though. Stannis has no claim and Robb was just a boy in WF. Robert dies and they capture Ned causing Robb to have to take action.


Just had the feeling of a lightning bolt hitting the tip of my penis moment. Tywinn tells Joffrey not to worry about the dragons and that they're small. Joffrey (wisely) counters asking what if they aren't? Tywinn later is consulting Tommen and explains that Joffrey had none of those skills when it seems he clearly did with massive amounts of WIM in the insanity department. Random musings....carry on.

I don't see how Illyrio could have known for certain that the eggs would produce viable dragons. We know that the dragons that the Targs were able to hatch were continually getting smaller such that the last ones were tiny and of no use. There was no way to know that these eggs wouldn't result in similar dragons.

It's not even clear to me that Illyrio knew that they would try to hatch the eggs. Their plan seems more focused on getting them a Dothraki army, and the dragons were more of a long-shot.

I think this is most likely. It's a good bit of storytelling (besides the clumsiness of having the kid verbally deliver the message) because it first appears as though Jorah is having a reflective moment and perhaps realizing his love for Dany as he observes her from afar- then has the "oh ****" poison epiphany.

But it's also possible he was lurking until the moment the wine merchant brought out the barrel to intervene, so he could make the hero move. The look on his face could really convey either.

I think we need to look at Varys in a different way than LF. Varys is a eunuck. Blood, family and heirs are important in Westeros. Varys doesn't have a family name to look after and won't ever be king because he'll produce no heirs, which leads me to believe he's genuine when he says serving the realm and self-preservation are his goals (e.g. he's not betting on a losing horse like Ned).

I view LF and Varys as similar characters but also opposing forces. They have both gained power from staying informed and well connected, but while LF wants chaos and personal power, Varys wants peace and the best for the realm.

I don't think Varys stands to gain anything from weakening all sides in the same way LF does. This leads me to believe if war in Westeros is something Varys wants, it's to make Dany's way to the throne easier. That's possible. It's also possible he's telling Illyrio what he wants to hear because if one day Dany and her dragons show up he's in a good spot.

Yeah that's what I meant to say. Robert didn't have Stannis and Robb to worry about so he could put his attention elsewhere (avange Lyanna). Plus he was an awful king so he didn't know where to put his attention anyway.

Varys not having a family is even more reason for him to have a government overturn though imo. So think of it like LF but for peace on Varys' side. So LF gained by helping the Lannisters. If Dany's dragons do indeed grow big as they'd hoped (or already potentially knew) then they know that by doing the same thing as LF but having the gambit card in Dany. So it could maybe be like LF vs Varys lol. LF having Sansa and Lysa vs Varys and their dragon side......Heavy breathing.

Oh ok, I see what you meant now on the last paragraph. I don't think even if you said to Robert that the Iron Bank was at the gates that he'd bat an eyelash as opposed to just fighting them ****faced with a giant axe lol

I went back and rewatched the episode where Varys/Illyrio talk in the chambers, and I don't get the sense that Varys is necessarily team Dany. When he met with Illyrio, I think Varys told him what he wanted to hear in order to get Illyrio to divulge the information Varys wanted to know. Right after the scene in the crypts, Littlefinger and Varys had a little talk in the throne room. They were both boasting about what they knew about the other, and one of LF's was that he knew that Varys had just met with Illyrio. He met it as a threat, like what would King Robert do if I told him, but Varys just shrugged it off, immediately followed by a small councils meeting where the Dany assassination plot was hatched with Varys in assent. My read on Varys is that he truly does want to serve the realm and would have liked to have seen Dany killed to avoid a bloody invasion, but he's not at all averse to playing both sides so that no matter what happens, he still maintains his influence and his head.

Yeah that's pretty much where I'm at too, Dudd.

An out-smarting contest LF vs Varys would be pretty epic though. I hope at some point we'll see them really clash.

She was Nymphadora Tonks and first appeared in Order of the Phoenix. I think she got small scenes in the three films that followed.



I expected Tyrion's trial to happen last week. So, I'll be disappointed if there aren't big developments in tonight's episode. Also, it's time for Arya to arrive at the Eyrie.

Isn't this what they did the first time with the mad King and with ned?

Seems to be winning strat.