Shark in your small pond. Playing a skilled LAG who's waiting for a bigger game. - Page 2 - Live Low-stakes No Limit Poker Forum

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07-29-2010 , 07:13 PM

#26

cashgamepoker500

banned

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 2,094

yeah i think your beat here. def a fold. if hes bluffing us hats off to him.

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07-29-2010 , 09:13 PM

#27

KaizenK

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 1,741

Quote:

Originally Posted by cashgamepoker500

yeah i think your beat here. def a fold. if hes bluffing us hats off to him.

villian was a female

as played I would fold.. btw, was she Asian? I don't think I've ever run into a female lag in SSNL..

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07-29-2010 , 09:22 PM

#28

KneedUrDough

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3,210

A good Villain will know ur practicing pot control (when u check behind on the turn) and will crai the river as well (see Durrr vs. the real estate guy.) She knows u want to keep the pot small so she'll make it huge.

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07-29-2010 , 09:30 PM

#29

AintNoLimit

Coach live/online NLHE

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 6,399

Quote:

Originally Posted by KneedUrDough

If we are playing a villain that really is this good and shovvy, then chk bck turn to call riverbet OR check river as well. At 100bb we can pot flop, and bet fairly hard on river and villain would have to be an idiot to shove that small a raise bluffing. But at almost 200bb, well if we think villain could bluff shove, then we have to check OR bet/call if we really really think villain will bluff it.

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07-29-2010 , 10:03 PM

#30

KneedUrDough

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3,210

Flop: Td 8c 3s
$67 (2 Players) Villain checks, Hero bets $60, Villain calls $60

Turn: Jd
$187 (2 Players) Villain checks, Hero checks

River: Xx
$187 (2 Players) Villain checks, Hero bets $180, Villain raises to $640 and is all-in

$460-to call-$1007...

...tough to call a river crai with only a pair (and she knows u don't have a set or a straight as u would have been looking for value on the turn.)

Maybe I'm giving her too much credit (but I'd crai the shyt out of u on that board.)

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07-29-2010 , 10:39 PM

#31

derick

grinder

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 625

Quote:

Originally Posted by KneedUrDough

Exactly...

You can't play bet flop, pot control check back turn, value bet on the river. Villain is not some mindless 2/5 donkey who can't read your hand., She's waiting for 5/10NL and I see her playing 10/20NL when it's running. Why would you want to define your hand against someone who may be a better hand reader than you?

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07-29-2010 , 10:58 PM

#32

DiggertheDog

Pan Troglodytes

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 57,791

Yeah well we would not bomb the river like that.

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07-29-2010 , 11:02 PM

#33

jolyroger

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 657

Okay, since you guys have pretty much determined that there is no way to play this hand postflop we are back to limping pre and playing Queens for set value? Or do you advocate checking the flop?

Maybe we sit out till she gets her table change?

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07-29-2010 , 11:11 PM

#34

DiggertheDog

Pan Troglodytes

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 57,791

You have to establish this:
What is her blind defense range?
What is her flop c/c range on a dry board?

Then you have to ask yourself - how thinly can I bet for value vs her?

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07-29-2010 , 11:31 PM

#35

derick

grinder

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 625

What range do you put the villain on? I'm not too sure...

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07-29-2010 , 11:56 PM

#36

DiggertheDog

Pan Troglodytes

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 57,791

Do the 5-10 and 10-20 games have a tonne of 3-betting PF particularly from CO/BTN and SB/BB vs Steal?

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07-30-2010 , 12:00 AM

#37

schlep

adept

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 808

Bet more on the flop check turn.

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07-30-2010 , 12:59 AM

#38

cds0699

LOSING

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 9,018

Whats this bet $180 into a $187 pot on the river? I'm betting like $85 - $100.

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07-30-2010 , 01:31 AM

#39

vladb

journeyman

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 255

Quote:

Originally Posted by derick

Actually it's $30 into a $67 pot on the flop

And a $127 pot on the turn.

I think the villain may be a better player and a better hand reader than me.

Playing against a good thinking player you can't let them read your hand.

You're not playing against some idiot 2/5 player who doesn't read hands.

In this situation I like to let my position do more of the work and not rely on my bet sizes to define her and my hands. This is why I'm betting 40% to half pot. It tells her very little about my hand.

Ya agreed. You can't wary your betting too much simply based on the hand you have. Staying with the 1/2 pot mark is standard especially HU IMO. I had a similar spot where I chose to hang on to my QQ. In my case the turn was made it a flush draw and I felt the villain could do a lot of bluffing there with hands I had beat most of the time. On top of that, I let him bluff the blank river as well.. and was prepared to dump my hand on a completed flush board.

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07-30-2010 , 01:36 AM

#40

vladb

journeyman

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 255

Quote:

Originally Posted by cashgamepoker500

bet closer to pot on the flop. i like checking the turn here and calling a river bet/value betting river.

as played im folding. if hes good like you say, were never getting 3 streets of value anyway so just check back the turn and get value from the river/control the pot.

versus a fish though were always betting this turn obv. but in this spot versus a competent player i like controlling the pot on the turn and checking.

Betting near flop here would make the hand obvious to your opponent, and why would you advocate doing something like this esp. vs. a skilled opponent? Also, by near potting, you are limiting your own range of hands you could do the play with. I personally prefer standard bet sizing in most spots.. and only varying slightly depending on who I'm up against. If it's a clueless player who likes to call a lot, I could definitely increase my betting to get the most value of my hand. But against a more skilled player that can read hands well, advertising your range is a terrible strategy long term.

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07-30-2010 , 04:19 AM

#41

KneedUrDough

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3,210

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiggertheDog

Yeah well we would not bomb the river like that.

So betting $100 into $187 changes what? U lose less when she blows u off the hand? The thing is... She may actually have a monster (not just a monster set of balls.) The J on the turn is a scary card. Sets, straights, 2P and draws with decent equity are definitely in her range; plus, if she has watched derick play at all, she knows that he will cbet and barrel that board a ton so she has some air in her crai range as well (but how do u call knowing it's all going in on the river?)

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07-30-2010 , 04:39 AM

#42

DiggertheDog

Pan Troglodytes

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 57,791

Your range should be more fluid if you bet the turn.

I am not advocating pot controlling the turn.

So my line is b/b/c not b/c/b.

Of course I do not know her game but you should still be able to get value but I dont think you are bluffing when you bet/check/pot river.....so when she does c/rai it will have you beat particularly when she is not expecting folds.

So whilst I argue against b/c/b if you choose to take that line - I think you target her bluffcatching range by betting smaller.

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07-30-2010 , 08:37 AM

#43

derick

grinder

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 625

Quote:

Originally Posted by derick

Live 2/5.

Villain is waiting for a spot in the bigger $5/10NL game.
I've seen villain playing 10/20NL and bigger. All the dealers and floor know the villain by name.
Villain is a good skilled LAG smart very aggressive player.

I've played briefly with the villain before.

I've been playing TAG. The table is loose passive. Lots of limping preflop and very bad postflop play. The villain has seen me take down a couple of $100 pots without a showdown. The villain has been pushing the table around has quickly (I assume outplayed the table to) put her initial $500 up to $730.

Red QQ in MP ($900),

1 limper.

I raise to $30, (this is the standard raise at this table)

Good player ($730) in BB calls, limper folds.

Flop Td 8c 3s

Checked to me.

I bet $30, Good player flat calls.

Turn Jd (Td 8c 3s),

Checked to me.
I bet $60.

Good player check raises $210 with $460 behind. (I cover).

What do you do?

I can't for the life of me put her on a range at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I tank and watch her...

Nothing.

At this point I don't know what to do.

The only pairs I'm beating are 99 (bobtail straight draw) and 77 (yeah right, Gutshot).

I tank... I have no idea what her range is.
Obviously her bet has huge leverage because of the money behind.

I tank some more, I have no idea about her range.

I decide that I'm doomed here and it can't hurt to engage her in conversation.

Would you start talking to her? Knowing there is a good chance she might be better at gaining information than you, or do you shut up?

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07-30-2010 , 08:48 AM

#44

derick

grinder

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 625

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcePlayerDeluxe

Lot of sets in her range here, maybe 2 two pairs, and 1 or 2 str's. AK may be there also. Could be a float OTF and of course the turn card was good for her. The one thing I have noticed about women though is that they dont spew too much money. Generally when they bet strong they have a good piece of it. She basically bet a I am committed bet. It's up to you if you want to gamble against her range, but I wouldn't blame you if you folded. (maybe you can give a little better insight on her OOP flatting range?) (also need some math wizards itt.)

I don't know what her OOP flatting range is. She's usually the one pushing the action along. Most of her hands haven't gone to showdown.

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07-30-2010 , 08:51 AM

#45

Erreek

enthusiast

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 95

Quote:

Originally Posted by derick

bet 50 on the flop check back the turn and call the river

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07-30-2010 , 08:55 AM

#46

derick

grinder

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 625

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiggertheDog

If she is a good hand reader.
And she is playing down a level or two.
She is probably not expecting you to fold in this case.

I am not exactly sure how your games play - but my impression is that pot controlling turns is generally the rule in low-limit NL live games. When you barrell the turn you are generally pretty strong.

If she was to apply pressure to your range.
She is more likely to do it in position rather than OOP.
She is prolly more likely to do it with semi-bluffs OOP on the flop than on the turn.
She would need to have more reads to believe that you could fold to pressure.

So whilst it is true that more often you have one pair that sets or two pairs - and she might very well know this. There is no reason for her to believe that you would fold AA on this board.

I would keep my bet-sizing basement vs this villian at half pot.

Finally - you should include if you have history with her.

This is the first pot we've played together this session.
She's the last person at the table I want to **** with.

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07-30-2010 , 09:06 AM

#47

Erreek

enthusiast

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 95

thats why you bet 75% on the flop
check back the turn
and call the river bet

+EV

edit//

only way to outplay you taking that line is if she can put you on queens and bluff/value bet double the pot

but lets be real shes not dwan

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07-30-2010 , 09:08 AM

#48

KneedUrDough

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3,210

Quote:

Originally Posted by derick

Would you start talking to her knowing there is a good chance she might be better at gaining information than you, or do you shut up?

She knows what u have anyway lol...

...Seriously though, she could be making a move but (considering the stakes) she probably doesn't think ur good enough to lay down an overpair so chances are she has a big hand. This could be a 'delayed semi-bluff crai,' this could be an unpaired hand putting u on broadway cards or it could be the nuts. What a sick bet if she has air (love this broad lol.)

Ask her, "If I call u want to check it down on the end? Otherwise, I'm folding." She'll probably just sit there like a rock anyway. How about, "Can u beat A high?" It's all probably a waste of time anyway, admit to urself that she owned u and fold.