I think we are being too scared of getting c/r'd. Even though she is a higher limit player I think its going to still be ultra rare that we get c/r OTR with air. If she c/r I think we can safely fold... thats IF she c/r's us. Unless I see someone c/r like a maniac I think that should be the last thing on our minds.

And to follow up on that.. this is why against good players its best to just play them straight up with hands like this. I am getting lost in this hand from OP's POV. At first he says I bet half pot so I didn't turn my hand face up, and it sounded like he was setting her up by under repping, but then he get's c/r and gets lost. I truly believe that if we were making stronger bets this hand plays out a lot differently and possibly easier.

river value bet is bad agianst someone that wants fireworks
bet flop in position, check the jack, check/call the river

well, betting half pot sucks. and no we aren't limiting our range by betting 3/4ths pot, we aren't advertising our range with a bet of like $50.

back to the hand, i still think checking the turn versus this type of player is best. if he checks the river we can lead out for a value bet of $100-125. if he bets the river we can call. seems safer to play it like this when your dealing with an aggressive opponent.

I bet 3/4ths with my big hands and my wiffs...

...in a 3bet pot this changes (but that's another thread

Oh yeah, if I flop big against a fish and stacks are deep, I'll often overbet the flop (and sometimes the turn... again, a topic for another thread.)

it is another thread but bet sizing is the texture of the board
the line you take to include your hand in that range is dictated by the board

I think I was referring to the b/c/b line some were talking about.... but regardless... being afraid that a player is going to c/r us is not a reason to check back.

... yes it is

Come to think of it, that's not always true. lol
Let's just say that 3/4ths is my default cbet.

its the standard cbet

good players incorporate half the pot and pot cbets depending on the line their representing and the texture of the board

it widens the range of your half the pot and pot bets obviously

Yes what is? Being afraid of being c/r'd is a reason to check back?

Absolutely agree that you should bet more on the flop and check behind the turn with your vulnerable one pair hand and gutshot. As played, you really have no idea what she has here. Since she is a good LAG, I think it is more likely that she has some kind of semi-bluff here like a pair+flush draw, pair+str8 draw. This is definitely an all-in or fold situation. Since I give the semi-bluff more weight than made hands, I think the best play is to push all-in as this causes her to lose equity from her draws (either she has to fold to she has to call you getting bad odds).
In practice, I probably lay it down because I'd have a hard time putting that much money in the pot not knowing where I'm at. In a tournament, I probably push all-in.

pot control

read Professional No Limit Holdem Volume 1
you can find it in the two plus two store

I agree on the turn check. The turn is arguably one of the worst cards for QQ except an A/K. It serves well to control the pot and just check it with hopes of calling down a small bet on river as a bluff catcher.

Pot control has nothing to do with being afraid of getting c/r'd.

stop trolling my posts
i'd quote you but its copyrighted
go buy the book and support the forums you use

Checking behind on the river because u don't see any hands (that u beat) that will call ur value bet (after 3 straight checks) and because u don't want to get blown off the best hand by an aggressive Villain would not be labeled 'pot control.'

you guys friends?
call it what you fancy
either way matt ed and i agree

/edit

oop left out sonny

Bet $60 on OTF and check the turn. OTR call a PSB if she leads, or bet ~$120 if she checks. If she CRAI OTR, you can probably fold.

Or, bet pot OTF and OTT, and call her CRAI OTT needing only an equity of 30%.

I am highly skeptical that this "good" player knows you have QQ, and is therefore trying to get you to fold with air your over-pair knowing you are scared. Good players know that most LLNLHE players do not fold over-pairs.

Good players find good spots to bluff. They look for weak players with marginal holdings. They don't say to themselves, "My villian has an over-pair, I'm going to shove AI and get him to fold."

They know an important rule: Most LLNLHE players do not fold over-pairs. Why would she try to get you to fold one with air?

That being said, this could be a semi-bluff. However, given that the T and the J are on the board, and that you have the Q, there really aren't that many semi-bluffs out there. She might have the following semi-bluffs:

{AK, J9s, 87, 98, 86, A8}

Or she could have the following hands that beat you:

{TT, 88, 33, JTs, 79s}.

Against this range, your equity is 35% (see below). After your $60 bet OTT, you have $630 left. Assuming a shoving situation, you are probably looking at having to call $630 to win $1500. You need an equity of 42% to call.

She might have AJ. If you put AJ in her range, it's a call.

Now, if you played the hand more aggressively, if you bet $60 OTF, and $120 OTT, and she CRAI OTT, you would need only an equity of 30% to call a CRAI OTT.

I've read the book...

...and please stop referring to Matt, Ed and Sonny like they're your peers

TY

yeah, this ^^

She is not floating OOP AJ - not buying that a 10/20 LAG player is floating OOP with overcards on T83.

More likely to c/r given 7,9,J,Q,K,A are very good barrelling cards for bluffs - in that make it harder for anything but the top of your range to continue and complicate the board at the same time and are of a sufficient frequency to enable her to not be forced to give up too often.If she wanted to bluff she is c/r the flop - the reason she would be doing this is because either the board smashers her range + she feel like you are capable of folding and/or your range is weak and the board is dynamic enough that she can get you off your air and some of your weak made hands. All of this happens earlier than on the river because she can leverage bet sizing over many sts with implied threats of larger bets. On the river with a lead she does not have that.

Auxiliary point on her not floating - is precisely because there will be a ton of pot controlling on turns in a 2/5 live game which makes it a ton harder for her to make floats profitable.

So if you pot control the turn - what are the reasons why you think you should bluffcatch a pot lead on the river?

c/c checked over turn lead river is a line taken by fish more often than regulars.

When regulars lead rivers like this its because they are valuebetting not bluffing.

I do not believe Hero is nearly loose enough PF nor aggressive enough postflop - for villian to believe there is enough air in his range to be blowing these semi-bluffs in your face. So unless you have a really weak-tight history or you have an image which contains range and tendencies that have alot more air - she is not bluffing you on average. So cool sure she might have spazz-monkey over aggressive leaks - and she might be bottom heavy in some spots - but we have no reads yet to make that judgement.

So if all of that is true - how do we get value from her bluffcatching range - well we use bet-sizing that whilst it is unlikely to be bluffs but could be - we have to be at least looking like we are going for thin value. Otherwise by potting - we then manipulate her range to nut hands without bluff-catchers.

Yeah I like this... she has air so much here... because of the way you played the hand... think about it, guy raises to 30 pre, c bets 30 on the flop (less than half pot) then $60 on turn.... you don't think this is a perfect opportunity to take the pot away from you? dam right it is... I think the way you play you have to shove.... (if you're gonna under rep your hand I think you have to have a defense mechanism for getting played back at), if anything, overbet/fold the flop and check behind the turn and call most rivers. Especially if these stakes obv don't mean much to her.

Good post, perhaps the decision to check the turn, or bet the turn, is closer than I originally thought.

I like the above questions better than what I did.

Something lucky happens to me.

The PA announces a list of names for a new 5/10 table.
She calls out the the floor, "How could I be eleventh on the 5/10 list?"

The floorman replies with some obsequious gibberish.

I can't think of anything good to say. I should memorize some good lines, but I decide to try conversation.

My brain pumps out something idiotic.

I say, "How much do you have?"

This is totally ******ed. I know exactly how much she has. She knows I know.

She lifts her arms showing her stack.

Then she smiles and she remarks, "... Maybe we should have gotten it all in preflop."

What do you do with this information?

What's your read now?

This expresses what I was trying to say in a much more eloquent and cogent manner.

KneedUrDough has played with me live, Maybe he can say a bit about the image that she thinks I project when there is a LAG in the pond?