Weird line. Just bet the flop. You don't actually have a hand yet and getting in a b/3b would be pretty nice. If he's a suspicious soul, he's probably going to think you're not repping much by checking twice and then minraising on a massively wet board. It's also possible to c/r turn after betting flop, getting the bet out of him then when the pot is bigger.

In general I think it's a bad idea to trade in your standard line to chase flop action. Here you spend most of the hand trying to induce this guy to make a pot-size bet, but it's at the cost of a dubious plan for the hand overall. I'm going to guess you got called pretty light here. Putting villain on something like KT.

Interested in my flop decision - I know pre is bad.

Weds afternoon and I’m playing 2/3 at my room before a function. Table is chatty and friendly and there are three other villains who I recognise and have hours with and then a load of unknowns. Ave stack is over 100bb

There are three limpers to me on button and I over limp 89o.

I have 850ish.
BB is the only player at the table I respect - decent semi pro guy who can bluff, play well aggressively and gets value from his hands but has a fold button. He has 900

BB raises to 20, two other callers - both unknown Asians, one with 350, the other with 200. I sigh call after 5 seconds- (I actually do sigh call and laught about it with BB)

Flop is 10 9 8 ccc. BB leads for 50, 1 fold and then Asian with 200 also flats.

What do we do here with bottom two on a wet board?

With position i feel like a flat is a decent choice Feely. Like bottom two is not a hand i get a boner from on such a board where all kind of strong hands is possible, like flushes and straights. Also i believe overplaying such a hand as bottom two on this kind of dynamic boards is a leak i see from quite alot of players, because they think "oh i haz two pears- lets raise and stackoff".

By flatting we can utilize our position in alot of ways, like getting more info IF villain decides to bet again on the next street and how much. We can give ourself the best possible chances of getting out cheap if we are indeed beat here. On the other hand we can easily get one or two streets of value if villain decideds to check on the turn/river.

By flatting we also keep our own range as wide and non defined as possible. We are not capped, because we could easily flat alot of nutted hands in this spot a decent percentage of the time- like a flopped flush or a straight. Overlimping either 6-7 or Q-J on the button is not out of the ordinary at all.

Final argument for this time against raising: i dont think we will get the one good player that you say you respect to stackoff against us/or put in big amount of money against us with a lesser hand than bottom two on this board. And those scenarios (on the road to stackoff/put in alot of money) are the ones we are facing if we raise it up on the flop.

Butchered every postflop street, IMO. Why would you not bet this flop? What on earth would you c/minraise the turn with after checking flop? You're basically trying to tell a story that you have exactly KhJh - other flopped straights/sets would bet flop and turn big to deny equity to the draws.

A story that only makes sense for one combo will get looked up pretty light.

Call. We have very little if any FE here to deny to the club draws, half the deck sucks on the turn, Asian could be slowplaying a monster, etc. Evaluate the turn card and use your position. Usually in these spots Vs in a multiway pot will announce their true hand strength with their turn action.

Feel wrath, even if there were only 2 clubs, you are actually drawing here.

Your draw is to blanks. (And to 8/9 ofc)

This is a plo concept that has helped me alot in NL.

With 3 clubs, just fold.

Also, overlimping btn is fine, calling the raise is meh. Once a raise has been made it means someone has initiative (bad) the first street will likely have a bet (bad) and the bet will be bigger than in a limped pot (bad).

Alot of people think limp/folding is bad but there are specifics to live poker that make it fine.

I don't hate pre. It's an overlimp I make once in a while if I think the blinds check through a bunch. It helps that we're super deep vs BB, so while overcalling the $20 isn't optimal, I don't think it's atrocious (17/830 = good implied odds)

As played, I think we have to call here. PF, BB is likely raising suited broadways, maybe some suited Ax wheels and offsuit Broadways with K-high+. Other than TP/Overpair/Set/Straight/Flush value, he'd likely c-bet all combo draws, maybe some open-endears w/ an overpair. It's a range our bottom 2 doesn't crush and can withstand a raise, so we have little FE. Over 250bb deep, I think stack protection is our greatest concern on this board.

Yeah, I raised to 200 here and immediately realised it was a big mistake.

Felt like BB’s range had a ton of overpairs with a club/AK/AQ with a club and that unknown villain was drawing/pair+ draw type hands and that I needed to protect my equity but bottom two just wasn’t strong enough to do that though.

Would have had to fold to a shove or a raise from bb which would have been a disaster.

1/3 Homegame with a bunch of players playing alot of hands. Mostly through limping or calling raises, but also pretty wide opening ranges for many of the players. This is late night, around 02 at night.

UTG big whale straddle for 6 (he is always on autostraddle). Loose opener who usually deals the game but plays tonight opens to 28 from early pos. Openers range includes stuff like 9-7 suited and KQ off. MP is a guy from Iran who i have never played with before. He seems to play a decent amount of hands though from what ive seen the 2 hours ive played with him,both raising himself (showing down premiums everytime) or calling raises pre. SB is a donkament fish basically who never raises himself, but plays his whole range passively by calling with everything from 7-3 suited to AA.

Hero is playing around 280 and find himself in the BB looking down at AJ off,facing a decent amount of action so far i would say. Hero?

Assuming both the described players called? I'd just rip it in and let your fold equity do most of the work for you.

That or just fold.

Yes,i see i was a bit unclear in my original post. Both briefly described villains flatted the 28 open.

Not deep enough to really flat profitably or raise so I'm assuming you're asking between a fold or shove? I'd completely honestly rather shove with 78s than AJ and even if the players are loose they will have hands sometimes. I'd prefer a fold rather than shoving. Even if the move may work, I think this is a game you beat anyways so no sense risking what should be a winning night by making risky moves.

Well, i dont want to set any premises in terms of what people are allowed to be thinking about the spot- as i dont want to put bias or weight the discsussion either way from my own point of view. I will happily read arguments for either option available to us: calling,raising or folding.

Thanks for contributing with your thoughts

one thing i used online and still kinda do is maybe you don’t want to have all A Jay Ohs here, so go pick x/12 of the combos that you like and that’ll be your frequency

ripping AJs is really easy here

this thread is kind of a jay oh

you might want to run some equity calcs on that strat.

I think I gii all day here, but the EV might not be that fantastic. not a bad spot to run some FE assumptions and see where the line is.

Iffy preflop shoves are admittedly a weak point in my game so I did the calculations. However with my assumptions I still didn't get the answer that makes this anything close to an easy shove. Everyone seems to think easy shove so I'm hoping you guys can point out where I went wrong in my math or what assumptions you'd change that would make this an easy shove.

Call range assumption: TT+,AQ+

FE needed: (280-(.277*620))/84= ~1.29:1=56.3% folds

v1: opens 23.1% hands.....62/306 combos call shove
v2/3: 31.8% of hands calling 28.....62/422 combos call shove

.8*.85*.85=57.8% chance they all fold?

So ever so slightly +EV? Breakeven with rake?

I'll admit that this is closer than I initially thought but with what seems like optimistic ranges, players who may call with PPs below TT, and players behind I think the +EV of this is questionable at best and definitely not close to an easy shove.

2/5
Hero in SB with QQ (eff stack is hero with $400)

MP opens to $15, 3 callers. We 3! to ?

Interested if I screwed up the sizing here.

So $60 in the pot already? I wouldn't go anywhere less than $80 and that's assuming I'm at a table with more conservative players and have a fairly tight image myself. If there's a particular weak player that I know calls big, I'll go more, especially if it's the pfr.

I’d be going to $90 ish

There's $75 with your call. Make it at least that much more, so $90. That's so close to a stack that I round up and hope it looks a bit FOS. $100.

There is $94 to be won if everybody folds, if one of the $28 bettors calls us we're putting $277 at risk to win a total pot of $94+$277+$252=$623

If we assume $1 tip and no rake if taken down pre and $8 (rake+tip) if contested, and for simplicity we'll assume 0 or 1 callers, breakeven all fold% p is:
p * 93 + q * ((winperc * 615) - 277) = 0

if called by a 5% range, our win perc is .31 and we need 48% all fold percentage for breakeven

if called by a 10% range, our win perc is .43 and we need 12% all fold percentage for breakeven

Looks like a super solid shove. Of course, it depends on our ranging, etc, but looks like we can rip A9o in here at least.

TL;DR - lots of dead money out there.

Ah I did forget to add in the blinds/straddle to the pot so yeah...+EV. I'd range most 5x straddle opens as way stronger a range which would hurt EV, but it's not my read and I gotta go by OPs range. You guys are totally right and I can say I learned a spot today that I normally would overlook. As long as we are bankroll/emotionally good with variance I can be down to shove. Mind changed

agreed that ranging the opener is the key to the spot.

Hero decides that AJ is a good shoving candidate here with a wide opening range for the open raiser and two callers that i strongly suspect calls raises with all too wide ranges, so i announce allin.

Open raiser seems annoyed with my shove and says "nice work Petrucci,finally you got the perfect squeeze spot lined up" and folds in discust. Iran guy tanks and eventually calls with AQ, one of the worse hands i could see when called. I know he 3 bets with AK pre, so AQ is basically the very top of his flatcalling range pre. Sucks to run into a hand that is able to call it off, but hero gets bailed out with the board running out 55779 though, chop it up.

So yeah, thanks for the responses- i still feel good about shoving in this spot despite running into the top of one of the callers preflopranges. I feel like i have developed a more fearless game recently in terms of attacking/taking advantage of players that calls preflopraises with too wide of a range and because of that really cant stand a 3 bet or shove pre with their weak range.