I realize this may be very basic flop fold but I'm just getting back into playing after a while:

2/5 NL
Hero is UTG+1 and opens for $20 w/ 9h9d
two callers behind and the BB calls. $80 in the pot.

Flop: Qc 8s Ts

BB checks, Hero checks, first field player bets $55, second field player calls, BB folds, hero folds.

I realize I have a gutshot but I just think there's no way I'm not way behind here. Thoughts?

sure you're usually behind, the question is if you have odds to draw based on what the pot is offering you + implied odds to justify a call, or if you have fold equity to get better to fold often enough to justify a raise. It's not just a "behind=fold" question.

That said, I think it's usually a fold, unless I know one of the guys will give me his whole stack with two pair or top pair, then maybe I see another card. Keep in mind that the Js and the 9s improve us but might turn our hand into a strong second best "payoff hand".

Easy fold at any stack size. OOP, no nut outs, extremely likely behind, may not get paid if you bink.

hey!

been taking shots at 2/5 recently after decent success at 2/3 and had a hand i wanted some advice on.

limper in ep and folds to hero on button with K10c who makes it 25. image is tag, just joined table few orbits ago. good reg to my left 3 bets me to 80. bb and ep folds and i call. reason for calling was as it was folding to me and i started planning my raise i had a really good inkling that sb was going to 3 bet me because of the sb vs button dynamic, so he was pretty wide imo at the time. also this villain knows i'm taking a shot at 2/5 as he sees me play 2/3 a lot.

flop 8x 2c 4x. he c bets 90 and i float and plan to raise any club turn if he bets turn and bet any turn if he checks turn. turn is 5x and he checks to me and i make it $110. he calls. river is 4x he checks and i take a while and bet $170 into about $600 and he tanks for ages and calls me with ace queen. was my play really that transparent and bad? a friend later told me that i took longer to bet river than any other street and that may have given it away. i was trying to rep 8a, 89, 99 1010 type hands and go for thin value.

any advice appreciated

So this is where you hang out mtagliaf. What are you playing these days?

Not sure I like entering a 3bet pot with KT when I don't have a handle on the table/villains. Even if you know he's three betting light, you're still usually behind.

If the goal was to ignore your cards and get if off his light 3bets, need bigger turn/river bets. he's got good odds to bluffcatch

2/5, 10-handed

V1: YWG. Tight, methodical player (takes several seconds to do anything). $500
V2: YWG. 2nd hand. Looks and acts like a reg. $500
Hero: MAWG, $900, have generally been aggressive, but haven't had to show any bluffs.

H raises to $35 in MP with KdQd
1 caller
V1 calls in SB
V2 calls in BB

Flop ($135) K63

V1 leads for $65, V2 calls, folds to H.

Pot will be $325 with my call, with $400 behind.

If we jam it here, are we really getting any calls from hands we beat? Call now and shove the turn? Plan to extract value over three streets? Thoughts?

It depends on V1's range. I know some players whose range is made hands AK or better if they donk bet from the small blind into multiple players like that. I have no problem insta-mucking against them. There are other players who have a wider range and will generally bet all hands that beat me on a non-heart turn and check all worse hands, which makes calling with the intention of folding to a second barrel and betting if checked to my likely plan. Then, there are players who check-raise their stronger hands and often have something like 6x or JJ here. My action depends on what I predict they will do on the turn if I just call.

Agreed. In this case, I hadn't seen any hands from V that would give me a read to go on here. Against a relatively tight player with no specific tendencies noted, how would you proceed? It sounds like you're leaning toward call/eval. Am I reading that right?

With no reads, I tend to default to a somewhat tight-passive line because letting my opponent have the initiative is the best way to acquire reads.

You describe V1 as tight. If he's also any good, then the very bottom of his range here is Ax. Give him an appropriate TAG range here and you'll see that your equity is not very good.

Once V2 calls, you can be hopeful that some of V1's flush range is now being blocked by V2.

The absolute worst thing to do here is to reopen the betting.

Since you have position, flat the flop and see if you can dodge a bad turn (A, , 2,3,4,5,6,7), and then see what V1 and V2 do. If they slow down, I probably move in. If they show lots of interest, I may find a fold here.

You're shot taking at 2/5, dont call 3 bets with k10s...

^^^ This. Do you ever bet the river so small? I don't. Looks very bluffy to me. Bet at least 35% of pot. I prefer 55%, but I bet bigger all the time, so I have to bet at least 50% to be believed. You may be able to get away with 35%, but this was what, 28%?

Game: 1/3
BB: 400ish, middle aged gamboool type. When he's shown aggression PF he's been aggressive post flop with big bet sizing. Example, folds to him he opens for $20, HU or 3-way c-bets $40-60 flop

EP: Covers hero and BB, likely a winner in this game. Seems taggy for now, but of the hands I've seen him turnover he's had the goods. Seen him play up to 2/5 in multiple places so it's possible he grinds for a living.

Hero: 280ish, LP. Newish to the table but have played with both villains before. I don't believe BB has much of a read on me since he and I have not gotten into a pot that went to SD. EP possibly consider hero 'ok' player, likely a bit on the tighter side.

Hand: EP opens $15 after 1 limp, hero flats 98 from HJ. I expect this hand to go MW and expect very little 3-bets behind me. I think EP is on the stronger part of his range since his PF raise sizes varies between $8-15; I think $8 is a pot sweetener whereas $15 is likely TT+, AJs+, KQs so I think I have decent IO odds if I get a decent flop

folds to BB, he calls. 3-way to the flop

~Flop ($45): 965 BB checks, EP c-bets $25, hero calls, BB calls.

~Turn($120): Q BB checks, EP $65, hero is getting about 3:1 but need about 4:1, but I'm sure I can get the additional money if I bink the river with the range EP is representing. BB has been passive this hand so I'm not too worried about him coming over the top.

Call, fold or shove are all options here. Which do you go with?

Obligatory Fold Pre.

fold pre. you may not get 3bets behind you but you won't usually have position either.

fold turn. Any IO you have if a 7 comes is negated by you paying off a straight if a 8 comes. Will you really fold a 2/3 pot bet if your hand improves to top 2?

I think preflop is meh.

What about raising the flop?

True, we'll often fold out worse and get called by better. But we're not going to get value from whiffed overcards in any case and if we just call here, we allow overpairs to get more value from us on the turn.

We've got two V's and there are many cards we don't want to see on the turn. We won't actually have a great sense for which cards are good and which are bad. There are few hands that V can legitimately repop with, so we have an easy fold if that happens. The straight draw is obvious and not to the nuts; not much in the way of implied odds there but it does provide equity if we happen to get called. Same with spiking an 8.

Calling means we have further information before making a turn decision, but it also provides two opponents an opportunity to overtake us.

Raise flop is the classic "end the hand now" move that often means you're stuck in a marginal spot that could have been avoided with a better decision earlier. As you say, it will fold out worse and isolate us against better, and is therefore definitely -EV.

You might well be right and I'm not wed to my opinion, but I'm having trouble with the rationale. Merely because a move folds out worse and only gets called by better does not automatically mean it's negative EV. In the same vein, I would posit that every hand will sometimes flop a marginal spot. Of course there's value in playing to avoid them, but the mere fact that we're in a marginal spot does not automatically mean we misplayed preflop.

In this particular instance I don't think calling pre is terrible, nor fantastic.

In any case, I think the hand has interest as played. (Imagine stacks were deeper, making the pre call better; I don't think that particularly changes our flop play.)

We have a hand IP against two opponents, but it's marginal and vulnerable.

I think we have too much of a hand to fold to a cbet.

Calling has some upsides, but also has some downsides: We allow two V's a chance to outdraw us, or to appear to outdraw us; we may lay down the best hand if V double barrels (especially if a good barreling card comes). We will probably face a turn decision and it's not clear that it will be better informed than the flop decision.

Raising has some downsides, but also has some upsides, in particular we protect a vulnerable hand and probably better inform a turn decision.

Sometimes raise, sometimes call, and never fold on the flop. Be more likely to call against the players you have a shot of stacking if you hit gin, be more likely to raise on what is often a semibluff against a player who won't pay you off as often on a scare card unless they are capable of 3betting with an annoying range.

Preflop is meh, imo. First, the raiser is "likely a winning player possibly grinding for a living". We think we're going to make any money off this guy if we hit our hand? If the guy is a hurp-durp-I-haz-overpair-I-stack-off, ok, maybe the call is okish, but not against this guy. Plus there's no guarantee we're going to go multiway (which we'd like to pad our immediate odds and implied odds), plus we're first to act after the raiser (worst spot on the table), plus there's an aggro in the BB who might 3bet (there are still 4 players left to react), plus we might not even end up in position postflop on the world (with CO/Button behind). Meh, imo.

On the flop we probably have 9+ outs against the raiser, although it's unclear where we stand against the BB. We're getting almost 3:1, but on the other hand our implied odds against the raiser suck as all our outs are scare cards for him. Although we do have a backdoor flush draw and could perhaps move him off his hand. I'd also call, but we're going to probably have to steal some pots for it to be profitable.

I'm simply not sure why you think we're going to make any money up if we bink the river. A 9 pairs the top flop card and our other outs put four-to-a-straight on board; he's very unlikely to pay off, imo. My guess is a raise (i.e. a shove) ain't too bad of an idea since this guy probably is a bet/folder, but it's risky because he did just bet the turn again into two opponents (QQ obviously ain't folding). Plus we still have the BB who could be waiting in the weeds.

GcluelessNLnoobG

If my hand improves I'm not planning on folding to any bet given spr.

Saw this situation come up in a game the other day and I was wondering what the thought process is here:

- We're at a 1/2 table with slightly tight players
- Short effective stacks, 50-60BB
- V1 raises preflop, V2 3bets, pot is 15BB and it's folded to you on BTN

What is the worst hand that we raise in this situation? And if we do raise, are we just shoving?

You can't call anything, except maybe aces for deception.

V2's range is the important one - what has he 3bet? If he's slightly tight, it's JJ-AA/AK typically.

1/2: Gross board for KK line-check:

two limps to hero in CO, raises KK to $17, UTG and MP limpers call.
UTG = late 20s white guy. New to table but looks competent and comfortable at the table.

Pot ($50)
Flop: 56::7
checks to Hero, I bet $40, UTG calls.

Pot ($130)
Turn 7
UTG checks, I bet $75, UTG tank announces "all-in" for $250, I fold.

obviously terrible board and terrible turn card, but bet/fold both flop & turn and check back river vs UTG limp caller standard here? Or check behind turn and hope to get to showdown cheap.