Actually, looks like Pecota said the opposite of what I thought he said. Officially, all these deals were within their respective 48-hour windows, and like I said, Karak and I can still negotiate a new 3-way deal with danvh that involves Madson moving through and all that. As for fixing the window at 48 hours, obviously I disagree, but it's a league decision, all cool. So am I wrong that this kinda seals it; is there something I'm missing?

I should have just countered with CY, Lomo and Madson for Lee and someone else and tried to end this before it began haha

I'm slightly confused as to what has happened here. I thought that the problem was that Madson had been flipped before he was owned by Karak.

I don't agree with changing the rules so that there is only one 48 hour period. I think it should be reset if a counter-offer is accepted. It's not like this is generally a huge problem - most trades, there are no counters, but when one is accepted, there should be an opprtunity for further offers.

How about 48 hours for initial trade, 12 hours after an accepted counter?

Second issue was that Karak's counter was accepted more that 48 hours after initial offer was accepted.. But less that 48 hours from when counter was apparently accepted. Werent sure which 48 hour period the final accepted offer needed to be in..

Officially owned, yes. But like I say, if both deals are in the counter-offer stage, then I don't see how it's a problem. Now, instead of:

danvh trades Ryan Madson and Zach Cox to Karak for his 1st-round pick next year

AND

Karak trades Bourjos, Ortiz, Madson, and Pineda to Levarkin for Cliff Lee and Matt Garza

Those two deals have been effectively countered by this deal, to which all parties have implicitly agreed, or will agree, or whatever:

Three-way deal: Karak gets Cliff Lee, Matt Garza, and Zach Cox; danvh gets Karak's 1st-round pick next year; Levarkin gets Bourjos, Ortiz, Madson, Pineda

I don't really see how it's a big problem, since it's a counter coming in the window for both deals.

I thought the rules were pretty clear that was OK - that the clock was reset when a counter was accepted and we went to the start of a new 48 hour period.

As far as changing the rules, I'd be happy with 48 hours, and then another 24 after a counter is accepted. Less than 24 makes it too easy to time things so there is no practical possibility of organising a further offer.

As far as I'm aware, the rmost up to date ules can be found here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=507, and are very clear that there is a new 48 hour period.

Looks like the league constitution dictated a 48-hour window for each counter. Maybe we change that, maybe we don't, but when all this went down, it definitely hadn't been changed. I'm going on Pecota's reading.

I can kind of see that argument - not sure if I'm totally convinced, but I can see what you are saying. Are there any commissioner people not involved in this at all, who can make a decision?

I think the best thing to do is just to let me have Lee :-)

In the interests of unity, peace and all that ****, I will happily adopt Clifton Phifer.

Obviously my opinion probably doesn't mean much since you'll assume bias here, but IIRC when I wrote the league constitution, I envisioned a new 48 hour window when a counter-offer is accepted. Otherwise that still defeats the purpose of the rule, which is to make sure that every accepted trade is as fair as possible.

From the official rules. AFAIK this has been unchanged in every single draft I've composed. See below, especially the bolded:

As I authored these rules years before this current trade, I think you can remove inherent bias from the equation.

Since this is what the most up-to-date and original rules drafts state, I'm pretty sure this settles it, especially since I was operating under the understanding that that was the rule. If I had known the window would be shorter, I woulda been all over Levarkin much earlier in the night. Instead, I told him I was going to take a nap and we'd talk later. He can verify all this.

Again, however, since I am involved in the situation, do not let my word by the final judgment on the issue without consulting everyone else.

Yeah, I'm obv biased too, since I prefer Karak's offer to Exit's. I would trust Pecota to make an unbiased ruling. I would trust Exit too, even though he's involved. Seems like an fair-minded guy.

You probably planned it.

And we also discussed a "player to be named later" scenario last night if the Madson deal were to fall through.

I'm holding up the rookie draft, sorry. Danny Hultzen.

In order to avoid any issues, we've made a technical amendment to our trade: it is now the same exact trade, except his side and Madson is now replaced with players/Madson OR a player to be named later based on an internal list we've composed ahead of agreement to the trade. let me be clear that i do not think this is necessary at all, but we are just doing it to make sure everyone is happy since it isn't a big deal at all. we had already made a gentleman's agreement that if madson didn't work out, we would easily have another deal in place for lee by swapping in a different PTBNL

based on this + the fact that the rules plainly state counter-offers open a new 48 hour window (indeed i was relying on this in order to take a nap... if i know the rule is something else, i skip my nap and we work a trade out right then), i think this plainly settles the issue

again, you'll assume bias, but i can 100% guarantee you even if i weren't involved, i'd say the same thing, because im a douchebag lawyer which makes me by default an enormous rules nit. plus i wrote the rules so i obv lurve them.

The 48 hour thing is entirely clear. Karak is quite correct with that, and it isn't arguable.

I can't even figure out whats going on.

thread is getting lawyered

I object! The exit counter was never officially accepted im thread or confirmed. Thus making lee mine.

Jk bored and stuck in traffic

shrug. my main problem wasnt the 48 hour window, i concede that was still open.

but theres an order. just because both trades were within the 48 hour window i dont see why you can smash em together and create a 3 way. they were made seperately a day apart. i agree that a PTBNL list solves this - without one i'm incentivized to go and counter for Ryan Madson, nullify your Lee deal (and I have some deals ready to offer) - but now is a weird time to be first implementing a PTBNL rule that we've never dealt with.

however it turns out is not really a big deal and i dont care as much as we've talked about it. whatever Pecota says is cool.


sergsz and then danvh 2x then sergsz again up in rookie draft

i mean if we are going to get uber technical about it, i suppose we could restructure 2 deals: 1 for lee with a gentleman's agreement for a 2nd deal of madson OR the PTBNL (and we do have a list of them) for Garza down the road, but i feel like that is especially unnecessary, since i think the whole PTBNL deal was unnecessary in and of itself

Fwiw, I blanket agree to any deals where I trade cox and madson and get karaks first round pick next year back.