Welcome. Not the most active forum but some of the posters (not me) really know their stuff which is helpful. All posters are cool though.

Good luck playing in Ontario. I'm in Buffalo and am praying we can start playing next week.

I don't doubt that it is a common thing but this is what frustrates me about the golf industry, and especially instruction. Whoever came up with this doesn't understand the golf swing. This is like going to the doctor and getting your bloodwork done and the doctor tells you that you have high cholesterol. Then he gives you a pill for that high cholesterol instead getting to the root and asking about what your diet and excersise habits are. That would be the root of it and the medication is like putting a bandaid over a bullet wound. Most golfers come over the top and I've gone into why this is common before. There are other things that you can do to help the coming over the top that should be done first. Did you change anything about your backswing at all? I'd bet a lot of money that you take the club back too far on the inside and this is a big part of why most people come over the top on the downswing because they are compensating for their poor backswing. I also don't see this noodle being very effective and I have a much better way to fix your over the top and it's much simpler. It's cool that you saw some results that were better. Where those when you had the noodle there or were you able to do that without the noodle? I dislike using aids like that because then when you take the aid away your body hasn't really learned anything and it's much more difficult to recreate the feeling. I try to make everything as similar as possible to the course and since you can't take a noodle on the course, I don't like the idea of using one.

Yes the golf industry has this backwards. The right side of the body for a right handed person is their dominant side because it is used more, making it stronger and always in control. Now when you take a right handed person and give him a current right handed club, the body does what it always does. The right side takes over and is dominant and when this happens in the golf swing, the club gets pulled too far on the inside.

If you take that same right handed person and give them a left handed club. The body will still do what it always does. Now, when the right side takes over it leads to the club being pushed down the target line instead of pulling it too far inside. Then from there it is much much easier to come down on the correct plane.

This is why I don't like this and don't believe it is better for the average player to think about these things. Are you saying that a slice is caused with a closed clubface but with a open path to the target? For a slice, the ball will start left and then go to the right normally but can start straight and go right and can start right and go right. I know that a shank is caused by a closed club face but I don't think a slice is caused by one. The reason why they are slicing is because they are unable to release the club properly and can't close the clubface enough before impact. I don't think it is possible to slice with the clubface closed but most slicers start the ball left. I dont know how someone could even have a closed clubface who is swinging out to in. It's unnatural and I am starting to remember what I didn't use this in my lessons or teachings.

Ok, what is it?

honestly I'm a 20+ cap so take it with a grain of salt but this is all wrong

if you struggle with an over the top move i would suggest looking up some videos (george gankas knows this stuff really well) on getting more shallow on the back swing. helped me a lot. i used to be really steep with the longer clubs and could never get a repeatable motion

I was over the top because my setup was wrong. I turned my head a bit to the right towards my right elbow and that helped. Now I just need some nice enough weather to practice

Swinging more inside on backswing might minimize the detrimental effect of the over the top move, but I think it's a band aid for inability to lay off the club at the top.

I think you can have a relatively high position at the top of the backswing, and still hit from the inside if you lay off the club and give it the split second it needs to drop into the slot. This is the crux of the proper 2 plane swing as far as I know.

My understanding of how to lay off the club at the top is not comprehensive. I don't think about dropping my rear elbow at all which is shown to be happening at high level analysis. I only think about having a strong left arm and wrist position created by the backswing, and at the top I curl the club with my left hand and wrist, engaging the forearm muscles, which forces the butt of the club down and instantly creates shaft flex from the momentum of the clubhead pulling in the opposite direction. This shaft flex is different from those with an over the top move, however slightly as the geometry has changed just a little.

This happens fast and I'm still grooving it, but it feels and works so much better than before, when I had no choice but to backswing more from the inside. Now my top positions are much more comfortable* and I only think I'm too high above plane occasionally.

*inside path creates hip pop at top sometimes. Very distracting and uncomfortable.

I also needed to bend my legs. They weren't bent at all.

I should mention that I didn't come to this realization on my own. I had a lesson from a highly accredited and accomplished instructor who has been a class A PGA member for the last 25 years. I don't know if any of that other stuff is going on, but I guess all of us swing differently and what works for one might not work for someone else.

The lesson definitely helped immensely. I gave up googling videos trying to fix it on my own. After a year I realized I can't do it. Money well spent.

Yeah stop doing this imo. Usually faults in a swing are a biproduct of something else. Best going to instructor and getting looked at that way.

Literally hear it all the time with my playing partners... "I looked on Youtube" I immediately go oh boy here we go again. Obviously there is some good stuff on Youtube once you know what your looking for but typing into youtube "How to fix a slice" isn't probably going to help you.

After I stopped watching swing videos on YouTube I improved too, they’re just too generic and designed to be for everyone and not your tendencies. Although there are some good accounts and instagram pages that have some golden content.


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Taking the club too far inside usually forces an over the top move. Even with guys on tour who have the little professional over the top swing.


Almost always trying to fix one's swing with youtube videos is a recipe for disaster. The majority of the time I read about such here I just shake my head.

A good teacher can greatly help a golfer in one lesson a lot of the time. I know I did. Occasionally a teacher can run into one of those students where the logical fix just doesn't work, but it's rare.

I've mentioned before that my chipping kills me. I have like 50 chipping YouTube videos saved in my "favorites" list, lol.

This I think is a different case vs a full swing or a big fault as long as you are not really getting muddled up with different techniques or feels then I think you'll be fine.

I've actually seen a couple of youtubers starting to actually buy them chippers and say it's so easy,

For me personally I think chipping is easy and would be a club wasted and I find it hard to see why others have trouble with it (I think me being shallow naturally massively helps with my chipping/pitching).

If I can give you any advice it would be chip balls without any target in mind, Just get confident with striking it and trust the loft (See people don't trust the loft on the club and either start trying to help it or because they are not confident with striking they decel on it). Once you have the strike down start chipping to targets to get a feel for how much it will roll out. I started off just chipping with my 48 degree only and got used to the roll out (People use to much loft when chipping imo)

I currently have one, looking for suggestions!

Anyone have a particular show they like? Looking to get waterproof ones with soft spikes. Spikeless does not work for me. I have always gravitated towards FootJoy because of the fit but willing to listen to others suggestions.

I got waterproof new balance almost 2 years ago and they're holding up very well still.

My preferred clubs for chipping depend on the shot:

I putt if the lie and turf allows good expected roll between ball and putting surface.

5/6/7 irons Ray Floyd style when I need to hop turf to get it rolling. 5 iron only for longest chips. Usually 6 or 7 depending on how far I want it to fly and roll. Maybe once every 5 rounds I'll use 8 iron for more hop with quicker stop.

I only use wedges for chipping in select situations when the above isnt an option, and only when I can put a somewhat aggressive stroke on it. I'm terrible at short touchy chips so I avoid them if possible.

I've worn FJ DryJoys for years and love them. I have two pairs now. Though I may like them as much for the looks as anything else. I'm sure there's more comfortable shoes out there, but I've been happy enough with these I haven't tried anything else.

"Taking the club too far inside usually forces an over the top move. Even with guys on tour who have the little professional over the top swing."

- bo.

This makes sense In theory and practice, particularly if such inside path backswing finds its way to a full coil at top of backswing; the momentum of the club pulls the clubhead toward the neutral arc, and without much laying off at the top the result will be that the clubhead is pulled above neutral plane where it stays until impact causing pull or slice.

I think this is why lots of players benefit from 3/4 swings, as the abbreviated backswing doesnt give the clubhead space needed to cross the neutral plane. Thus even with an over the top move many golfers become proficient with this adjustment as it keeps the club inside the neutral plane.

When my ball striking is at its best, those are usually the days when I'm not thinking about anything except how the lie will affect flight, where the bottom of my swing wants to be depending on the terrain, and coming through impact directly down the line towards my target. When I'm striking well I play irons dead straight so my starting line(clubface) visual target(clubhead path) and final target are nicely aligned.

Still rusty this season so I'm allowing a cut to happen naturally with 4/3 irons to get it higher without manipulation beyond grip it(finding balance between last years grip that I could hit dead straight, and something just a notch weaker) and rip it.

5 iron and up I'm already playing dead straight with slight errors on both sides(particularly unsure of new used titleist 9/8 combo direction and yardage)To be continued.

But the point I'm trying to get at in my own anecdotal way is that I dont like thinking about correct backswing as inside nor outside, but neutral as body mechanics desire in a way that creates strongest possible positions for the individual. I'm thinking Steve stricker consistent backswing path for the win. In that sense with individual body mechanics in mind(and probably lots of injury if youre a sports junky like me) my backswing theory is essentially get to the top without hurting yourself time after time after time, finding a strong stable comfortable repeatable position at the top, and figure out where the most natural and effortless ball position for that top position is. If I'm pull/slicing it, I give practice swings an extra split second to drop into the slot better which usually straightens it out(really helps with driver). I can keep focus on neutral strong comfortable backswing and coming straight through impact this way; instead of manipulating my path.

My most common error with 3/4 irons is flight that starts near intended target line but fades weakly well short of potential. Focusing on right leg stability and holding the lag through impact in practice swings seems to help. I can get a little slappy, for lack of better term. Like the difference between a power hitter and a slap singles hitter in baseball.

Miscellaneous bbv thread debris.

"Driver way wide right made par 4 fifth hole play about 475. 3 wood from ? picked nicely off soggy lie played to cut to get it high quickly out of the soggy. Felt good. Never saw it fly against the grey clouds. Oh 10 feet for birdie? Mark it 7(or 8 I lost count lol)." - me.

The card says 397 from the tips. If you walk straight towards the green 397 yards(unless yardage is based on middle of fairway, extending right a few degrees) you will walk along the fairway/rough borderline, with lots of fairway to the right, 20 yards of rough to the left, and trees/out of bounds lining the perimeter of the course all the way past the green tapering to a small room for error. Left of the green with out of bounds/small bunker/high point of green is a difficult up and down if your 2nd shot stays in play.

I hit driver way wide right into a lie that was soggy, but the ball was sitting up. My stance was altered by standing water, and I knew by the way I had to stand that if I managed to put the club on it, the cut would work best. This aligned with the desire to get it high because of the front right bunker. So I hit 3 wood aiming well left. I never saw it fly but the ball mark was 8 feet right of the central pin, with the ball 2 feet to the right.

I'm a nerd sometimes, and I was curious how far it was for the 3 wood. I eyed it up as 200 to 210 by the fairway bunker between myself and the green. So I took it to the math mobile:

https://imgur.com/a/Tr8arNP

Pythagoras had skills.

My 250 yard push cut driver yardage was probably max distance achieved, so any error will be towards increasing 3 wood distance.

Poor vision.

I tend to get laughs on this topic. Happened again yesterday when two ladies let me play through on the 100 to 175 yard par 3. I dont like butchering holes when nice people let me play through. Thus I chose middle tee box that ranges 145 to 155 instead of getting more yards per dollar with the back tee, but I digress.

7 iron felt good at impact, but I never saw it fly. I grab my bag and start walking. One of the ladies says "nice shot, glad we let u play through."

(Chuckling and smiling) "I never saw it fly." Me

"Its on."

"Oh ha. I dont see well. Even when I do see it I lose it about 100 yards out. I just walk and guess." Me.

Some laughs and we finished the hole, now to the point. I'm partially colorblind. I mix up colors(dont ask me to wire a furnace). My right eye functions in every way except focus. The muscle which controls the lens never worked. I became aware of this around first grade. My brain had completely become accustomed to ignoring ole righty, except my right hand peripheral vision is somewhat functional given light and movement. Introduce a heavy right eye glasses prescription, and put an eye patch over lefty. This was the Drs way of trying to wake up the lens. Never liked the eye patch. Long story short I haven't worn glasses since I lost them in 4th grade fighting two fifth graders.

I wasnt good at hitting a baseball, but I tried very hard and my defense impressed, despite seeing things in two dimensions. I was proficient at sports in rec leagues. My feel for distance shooting hoops was borderline mind boggling at my best. The town I grew up in was very competitive athletically(except football lol) thus I never competed at high school level. My close circle of friends were starting varsity 3b(we pinned ks for him when he pitched), ss, and 2b. They kept me very active in sports though. Its basically what we did.

These days ole left eye is getting tired faster. Its not fun driving at night when suddenly right eye turns on and says hey look at all this blurry ****!

Thats the sum up of how I deal with poor vision in sports, which leads to my putting woes. I know its not supposed to be easy, but I need to find a way to get better speed control. Need to find that feel I had for shooting hoops. I suppose that presents my answer, as I remember spending countless hours grooving my shot on the court from every spot. Time to putt in some work.

You fancy "2 good eye guys" dont know how good you got it.

Hehe.

/fin

If you are interested in a lesson then DM me and we can set it up. If you live in my area we can do it in person and if you don't then we can do a skype session.

It's not all wrong but I would happy to hear why you think it is wrong. Just saying it is wrong doesn't make it wrong. I promise you that it is not wrong. I am a scratch golfer, a certified PGA Professional, spent my whole life studying golf swings, and I've worked for two of the top three golf instructors in the world. I'd love to hear how you a 20+ handicap will explain this to me. You obviously don't know because if you did, you would have mentioned it in this reply. Since you didn't, means that you obviously just dismiss it without lookign at it with an open mind or even trying it yourself. You probably don't even understand basic concepts of the golf swing which is why you are a 20+ handicap. I'm looking forward to hearing your opinion and what I need to learn......

I'm going to guess that if you feel like you are laid off at the top that it's then easier to get the club on the correct path on the way down. You don't want to lay the club off at the top.This looks to me like the classic scenario of someone finding something that they did that helped them and they think that the same thing applies to everyone. What one person needs to focus might be completely different for someone else. This is why watching youtube videos and reading books and articles can be very bad for your game. For example, Golf Digest has some of the best players in the world give tips and what they work on for think about. Most of the time, the average golfer needs to do the opposite of what the best players do. A perfect example is when Tiger first came out on tour. He often talked about getting "stuck" and then everyone on planet earth thought this applied to them as well when in reality, the average player should try and get stuck because they aren't using their lower body enough. It comes down to feel vs real and you may feel like you are laying the club off but could still be crossing the line. It's not something one can know unless they use video or have a trusted instructor. It's like watching youtube videos about health, diet and excerise. Those things are obviously great and important, but it's crucial that you go to a doctor to know exactly what is going and what is the best treatment. Golf is the same thing and I think the youtube videos and books etc. do far more harm than good.

Set-up is crucial and is something that doesn't get stressed enough. I constantly work on my student's setups and this is the foundation of the swing. It's not going to cause you to come over the top though. I've explained why people come over the top a couple of times but don't mind repeating it. It comes from not using the lower body enough on the downswing and comes from our natural instinct to "hit" the ball instead of swing the club. That's the biggest reason why and there can be other factors that will influence it. A poor set-up can affect the swing path for sure but it's not a major factor.

You are right about most players using too much loft when chipping. The suggestion of getting a chipper is like telling someone to put training wheels on their bike. Just no don't do it and man cards get revoked for such things. When people struggle with their chips it is almost always because they use their arms and hands too much. You want to use an 8-iron whenever possible and get the ball rolling on the green as soon as possible.

I don’t agree that the earth orbits the sun. I have always been skeptical of the boiling temperature of water and I know in my heart that dinosaurs are a global mind control conspiracy perpetrated by big science.

I've read 1 instructional golf book: Ben hogans 5 lessons or fundamentals(last glanced at around 2005). 1 sports psychology book: golf is not a game of perfect by rotella.

I've watched less than 20 golf instruction videos on YouTube in my life, most are seve and Trevino short game stuff.

Abcde 123 is making assumptions to create a non existent issue. I keep my golf philosophy very simple. Doesn't mean I'm good at it.

My backswing is definitely high and this is by necessity because of left side joint issues. Thus I must give the club a moment to drop at the top. It's geometry.