rarely play deep live, but its the concept of never fold very top of your range, always bluff very bottom of your range (on the river) that I adhere to

even when every exploitative portion of your mind tells you no you just force yourself to do it. I've seen super nits show me dumb hands and massive stations fold to piddling bets on the river, its surprising what happens when you play atleast a little "balanced"

Bluffing the bottom of your range isn't actually right at all as a rule

What is? Bluffing hands with no showdown that block his range the best?

I would like some more feedback on this hand if possible.

One of the things I'm trying to work on is not being a calling station. I've been raising donk bets when I think I'm ahead even if I don't have really strong hands. It has been pretty effective so far. It generally results in a villain fold and it always slows them down. But when I get called in situations like this I get sort of lost. After thinking about it some more, his check on the turn blank really makes me think I should have bet it.

I'd say flat and get the overcall hopefully, shove the turn. If he has you beat, he's always calling. If he has a draw or a 9 or T he will probably fold to your shove, but might call if you do.

Annie's question was "What was the purpose of the 3 bet over the AI shove from the short stack" I think. As in were you going for value or to force the player whose range you are way ahead of out of the pot. The former seems unlikely, the latter seems like you are making it so villain 2 will only ever put money in the pot when he has you beat.

IMO, you need to look at ranges and the board (we are at the river here, right? If not then you want to be bluffing with unmade hands that have some equity, like a couple backdoor draws on the flop). Anyway, I think on the river you need to look at your entire range, and their entire range, pick out your value hands, and figure out how many combos of bluffs you should have in that situation (if you are playing unexploitably) and pick out the best combos (ones with blockers to his strongest hands seems like a good place to start).

Note: I don't think anyone ever actually does this except really good players who spend a lot of time on their game AFT.

The thing that does my head in is that my range is X and his is Y, but if I have AB, then his range is now Y', not Y, and if he holds CD, my range is X' not X

You can just ignore card removal in all but extreme cases.

Or you can deal with it from your end, like for each hand that is important in your range adjust his range for card removal.

Going further than that seems like a lot of work for little value, especially considering the ranges are only approximations in the first place. (You can never really know what villains exact range is, and probably not yours ever unless you are a machine and never take an action that is not the one you would if you were analyzing the hand on paper.)

jfc fml, i'm on a 30k downswing. i was playing in the softest game i've ever seen with tons of action, and i went 6 hours without winning a pot.

we get down to 3handed 5/10. villain is insanely lag and loves to play tricky. he can def hand read and makes hero calls and overbets a lot. he makes it 40 from the sb(which he's done about 90%), and i'm on the button with 73s. i call.

pot is 90
flop is 766r
he bets 80
i call

turn(250) 6
he bets 200
i call

river(650) 8
he checks
hero?????

we have like 4k behind

Based on this years thread posts, I'm going with Filthy probably has some tells.

"30k downswing" is almost impossible for me to comprehend.

losing at poker can be rough

feels like you'll never win again

Same for me and "73s, I call"

button is last to act for some reason

tweet from Timoshenko this morning

"Lost too much money at borgata 2/5 nl today. Taking week off to regroup. No more money in poker, everyone's solid. #GTO"

who?

yeah that made me wtf

the last thing id do with tricky lags is calling their raises with suited 3 gapper garbage

he was on the button somehow

yevgeniy

http://i.imgur.com/szsFVfh.jpg

**** i got the hh wrong. i guess maybe i raised my button and he called? idk, i was/am tired as hell. but im pretty sure i had post flop action right. i know i had a boat, and he checked to me on the river, and i didn't know if i could get value from a tricky lag who hero calls.


also, i might have live tells. that would really suck. i have a couple guys there who i think would tell me if they knew about them. there is one super experienced, very good player who does seem to play me pretty perfectly.

well this is the crux of why bottom of range is good, its super hard to get perfect bluffing/value ranges on river and many of us have a leak of bluffing too little esp in spots where we can't rep much or have a super strong range so its a useful heuristic to make us play better even if we haven't done the work

Well first of all even that heuristic is only relevant when we are IP on the river and it is checked to us, any other spot it would be terrible to bluff bottom range.

And it's really not that hard to choose good bluffing hands as opposed to bottom of range, although it is a big ev difference. Like if you're not bluffing the As on 257T9 with 3 spades but are bluffing with 43 that is going to be really bad for your winrate.

yeah I agree ip and checked to us, i shoulda said that

in your example its still easy to make a mistakes, sometimes the As has sdvalue so bluffing is a mistake right?

Yeah it obviously depends on ranges I just gave an example to demonstrate the concept

So I played with a couple of A-listers this weekend. vastly different stories.

I was playing $2/$5 and one of the WPT girls was at my table. She knew what she was doing, too. Yevgeniy Timoshenko came over to talk to her and sat at our table (we were shorthanded).

First hand he straddles and there are 2 callers, he makes it $325, both fold. He shows 2 he says, "That's for image considerations." After that he played really solid ABC mostly. He was 3-xing and folding to resistance.

I took a couple shots at him. I squeezed his HJ open with KJo (I'm ok flatting this hand against your average $2/$5 player, but against a real pro it's at the top of my folding range in this spot) and he folded. Later I opened J9s vs. his BB and he flatted, flop was T82r, I bet and he called, turn was Ad, I bet and he called. River was 6 and I gave up, he flips T6.

****************************

Over the weekend I was in some 10/20 LO8 games, and they were held in the high stakes room. (5/10 NLHE+, 10/25 PLO+ and mixed games...there is a separate room for the nosebleeds). I saw Ted Forrest back there talking to people. He was playing the 400/800 mixed games.

Last night I started a 2/5 PLO. We were playing 4-handed.

(as an aside, one of the sicker setup hands I've benefitted from in a while. One guy was pretty aggro, and I 3-bet from SB with A A 9 8 Flop comes A Jd T It's 3-ways and I bet, 1 fold and villain calls. Turn 7 I pot, he jams, I obv have to call and the river is the 5 to crack his flopped straight).

Ted Forrest is in the game! Me and other guy are maxed out at $1k, another guy is in for $400, and Ted Forrest buys in for $200. he plays very few hands, and busts with top set vs. a guy who had a combo draw and hit a back door flush. He only had 1 bullet and left.