I think it might put him close, but Chuck is the best ATM and it's actually pretty clear imo.

Chuck's hit list:

Pele
Jeff Monson
Kevin Randleman
Guy Mezger
Murilo Bustamante
Vitor Belfort
Babalu Sobral
Alistair Overeem
Tito Ortiz
Vernon White
Randy Couture
Jeremy Horn
Couture x2
Babalu x2
Ortiz x2
Wanderlei Silva

Chuck's the best LHW of all time right now. That list is amazing, and nearly every single one of those of those wins (other than Wandy and White) were over guys in their primes or right near their primes. Two victories over prime Tito and prime Randy. Beat prime Vitor. Prime Overeem (well, LHW prime Overeem, he was on a 12 fight winning streak). Beat Babalu, then Babalu went on a 10 fight win streak and then Chuck beat him again, at the height of his ability/ranking. Beat guys like Monson, Randleman, Bustamante, Mezger, Pele, back when they were still very relevant.

I think Shogun might need to defend the title more than once to pass Chuck. Chuck's list is toooooooo good and it's not just who he beat, but when he beat them. Nearly every important name on his list was near or at their peak when they fought Chuck. Shogun has several names that were not at their peak, like Coleman, Liddell, Randleman, Overeem the second time.

on the rumor mill:

Rampage/Lyoto matchup is apparently being discussed. Don't really like that matchmaking to be honest. I'd rather they both fight someone else a little bit lower ranked, get a win, and then fight one another after that for a title-eliminator maybe. Or maybe let Jon Jones fight one of them if he beats Vladdy. If Jones beat Vladdy handily, then he pretty much has to face a top-tier guy in his next fight imo. For whatever reason, I just don't think it's the best matchup and I think you could use those two big names in better ways than fighting one another.

Preach on. Chuck's resume is still the best, even if he is no longer the fighter he once was.

I'm not gonna argue with Chuck as best LHW of all-time right now. It's definitely close between the top three and Shogun is going to get there eventually so it doesn't much matter.

The only issue with Chuck is that Rampage beat him twice, and once was right in the middle of his peak.

I'm still not so sure that Wanderlei isn't the greatest. It's hard to ignore the recent Wand, but he's never been the same after Cro Cop nearly kicked his head off. Back in the day I always felt Wand would beat Chuck, but they're both great.

I'm confused as to why we are counting their wins but ignoring their losses when evaluating each fighter here.

D_O addressed Shogun's losses and it actually helps Shogun's case for best ever imo.

I think Wandderrrrrrleiii is still the best.

As for the current LHW situation, I think people are underestimating Machida. I think he has the WIM to retake the belt - train harder/watch more tapes/exploit TDD (lack of)/etc. I would love to see round 3.

Because the important part of "Who is the best ever?" is what happened during their primes, not what happened after. Chuck's only two losses that really matter at all are his loss to Randy and his first loss to Rampage. Those are the only two losses he had in his prime. Who gives a **** if he's lost a bunch of fights recently? He could lose 15 straight fights at this point and he'll still be the best LHW of all time until Shogun gets a few more quality wins. I probably could have mentioned the losses, but who you beat basically defines your greatness, so I stuck to that. And I did address shogun's losses, the only loss that would really hurt Shogun is the Forrest Griffin loss. The other three were, in order: early career loss - freak injury - horrendous decision. The Griffin loss can be mitigated a little bit, but it's still a loss to a guy he was really supposed to beat.

Most of all though, this isn't like other sports. Combat sports are defined by what you do in your prime years. Nobody gives a damn that Manny Pacquiao lost twice as a teenager at 113 pounds. His only real loss that matters is to Barrera. MMA fighters routinely stick around too long and pile up losses late in their careers. Sakuraba is the second GOAT in all of MMA and he has a ****load of losses, especially lately. It doesn't change what a dominant force he was in MMA and how he revolutionized the sport fighting 2-3 weight classes over his head.

yeah good post, when I first got into MMA all I cared about was fighter's records, was surprised that those are semi-irrelevant

Just watched the Wanderlei@pride dvd, such a sicko. Too bad I only started watching ufc when he got into ufc/was over the hill But at least I'm looking forward to his next fight a lot now

wandy went 5 years in pride w/ his only loss being to a heavyweight mark hunt. the most impressive part was probably that he fought crocop to a draw, probably my favorite fight of all time. every fight of his just seemed like a brutal KO was imminent. i'd give him the slight edge, but he'll never break chuck's record of knocking out wrestlers.

Chuck gets extra points for not using steroids.

Wandy's record is sick as well. His prime was basically from when he lost to Tito in the UFC until the Hunt loss. In that time, he beat Mezger, Henderson, Sakuraba three times, Kondo, Rampage twice, and drew Cro Cop.



Seriously, the LHW division throughout the history of MMA has been so ridiculous. I'm going to attempt a list of the ten best LHW fighters ever. After the first three it gets really messy.

1. Chuck
2. Wandy
3. Shogun

4. Rampage (Igor V, Randleman, Busta, Liddell, Arona, Ninja, Lindland, Liddell, Henderson)

5. Tito (I kind of hate him this high, but ehhhhhhh) (Griffin, Belfort, Tanner, Kondo, Silva, Mezger)
6. Arona (Sakuraba, Silva, Ninja, Overeem, Henderson, Mezger)
7. Lyoto (Bonnar, Franklin, Penn, Sok, T Silva, Evans, Shogun
8. Randy (would be much higher if he spent more time in the division, only 6-3) (Vera, Coleman, Liddel, Belfort x2, Van Arsdale. Only 3 losses were to prime Liddell twice and via cut against a fighter he destroyed twice later)
9. Evans (Bonnar, Bisping, Liddell, Griffin, T Silva, Rampage)
10. Griffin (Monson, Sonnen, Bonnar x2, Shogun, Rampage, Tito)

I think I'd put Machida ahead of Arona and Tito. Can't just base it solely on who they beat. Machida's dominance of Thiago and Rashad is more impressive than Tito's wins imo.

BTW,

I didn't consider Sakuraba in that list because I didn't really think of him as a guy who traditionally fits in the LHW division, even though that's where a ton of his fights were. But if you look at his record

Vernon White
Carlos Newton (who had just beaten Shooto LHW champ Eric Paulson, and had LHW cred)
Belfort
Mezger
Rampage
Randleman

He could arguably be on the list, or at least close, despite weighing 180 pounds for most of his career. He never really had a dominant stretch at that weight because of the three losses to Wandy.

I think length of dominance counts, which is why I think Lyoto's still below both of them. Lyoto simply hasn't been around that long. Tito has better names imo and was champ for a good while. RANGZ, i know, but he did win 6 UFC championship fights, and that counts for a least a little bit.

Most of Tito's wins came via decision. His best finish is vs. Guy Mezger. That's nothing compared to Machida's destruction of Rashad. Peak is more important than longevity.

Peak is important, I agree. But it's not just how high the peak, but how long it lasted. And Tito's peak lasted longer than Lyoto's has. Plus, it's not like his domination of Wandy is less impressive because it was a decision, he dominated that fight. Mayweather doesn't lose points because he didn't finish Mosley or ODLH or Marquez. Some fighters just tend towards decisions.

I would probably call his best finish his KO slam in 30 seconds of Tanner.

I don't think Machida should be above him until he's been around and won some more. To me, length of dominance counts, and Machida hasn't had a long enough stretch to pass Tito. In the end, there's not really a right answer though. I don't doubt Machida will pass him at some point.

Pride rules Shogun runs through Rashad, UFC rules Shogun is going to have to KO Rashad. The one thing constantly being questioned is Rashad's chin, being rocked doesn't necessarily mean you have a bad chin being KO'd does mean that. If you get rocked and recover in time to avoid being finish your chin isn't bad. Somebody like Keith Jardine has a weak chin because he seems to never recover when he gets rocked. Rashad has been rocked in his last 3 fights but only finished in 1.

Shogun KO'd Machida because Machida tried to be more aggresive than he normally is, Rashad isn't going to make that mistake. Rashad is going to throw 1 or 2 punches and get out of the pocket or go for a takedown and not give Shogun the chance to counter. Shogun isn't submitting Rashad, he will get back to his feet a few times but he will go right back to his back. Against Machida, Shogun is the better fighter than Rashad, against each other it's a tossup.

So is it your opinion that Chuck was in his prime on 12/30/06 but no longer in his prime on 5/26/07? I ask because you included the second Ortiz fight in your analysis but not the second Rampage fight.

Shogun is always on the aggressive and always attacking. It might not be the best strategy against Rashad, but there's going to be nowhere for Rashad to hide while they're on their feet.

Danny,

I'd give the edge to Wandy, mainly because his dominance over Rampage is basically the reason why Rampage isn't on the short list of GOATs. I think the Chuck/Wandy fight should be thrown out entirely, or at least Chuck shouldn't get credit for that win while ignoring the 2nd loss to Rampage.

also agreed with everyone that if Shogun isn't already #1 he will be pretty quickly

If Shogun charges at Rashad it'll just make him easier to take down. Charging at Rashad isn't the best plan of attack for Shogun. Shogun is a smart fighter so he won't fight Rashad the same way he fought Machida.

I don't think you can put Chuck over Wanderlei because of how Rampage mauled Chuck in Chuck's prime and how Randy finished Chuck. Wanderlei went 18 fights and 3 1/2 years with losing, in those fights he went 16-0-1 with 1 no contest.

I would even put Rampage over Chuck, simply for the fact that Rampage finished Chuck twice in what could be considered his prime. In the time Chuck lost those 2 fights to Rampage he fought 8 other times finishing all 8 of those opponents.

If Shogun does beat Rashad and then defends his belt several times there will be no question he's the GOAT of the LHW division. I just really want to see a Shogun/A Silva fight, that'll bring out the best Silva. If both were to win 2 more fights and then fight each other I think it would be fair to say the winner of that fight will be the greatest non HW ever.

Who did Chuck even beat on his streak after winning the title? A bunch of bums.

UFC LHW was a joke during chucks reign.

Shogun has never not fought that way.