Drunk Sex and Rape - Page 181 - Politics and Economics

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10-19-2014 , 02:51 PM

#4501

13ball

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy_Fish

The accusation is the ONLY thing stopping anybody from being a rapist, that's my whole point. For example, my gf comes home after going out to the bar and we have sex. Her crazy jealous ex follows her home and calls the police. Well, she was drinking and therefore unable to consent, so I sexually assaulted her!

What are you talking about? Do you actually think anyone is going to take third part allegations about two people having drunk sex seriously? So your girlfriend will say "I consented" and that's it.

This bizarre hypothetical aside, "drinking" does not mean "unable to consent."
Drunken sex is not outlawed. The defense of "She/he said 'yes' after five beers" is deemed invalid. See the difference?

Quote:

Giz and LK danced around this issue when I brought it up earlier, but there's no doubt that under this law they have sexually assaulted each other.

No. There must be an accusation that consent was not given. Then, "he/she said 'yes' while drunk" becomes an invalid defense to that accusation.

Quote:

In a practical setting, needing "only the accusation" is a terrible way to craft laws, because it means we're all guilty and just waiting for the eyes of "justice" to turn on us.

Needing "only an accusation" is how lots of laws work.

10-19-2014 , 02:52 PM

#4502

Happy_Fish

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ikestoys

lol gmafb phill. When I woke my wife up this morning, I kissed her on the cheek. I just committed sexual assault!

You ****ing heartless BASTARD. She's laying there UNCONSCIOUS and you just assault her?

10-19-2014 , 02:57 PM

#4503

Happy_Fish

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 13ball

What are you talking about? Do you actually think anyone is going to take third part allegations about two people having drunk sex seriously? So your girlfriend will say "I consented" and that's it.

She was under the influence of alcohol, she was UNABLE TO CONSENT.

Quote:

This bizarre hypothetical aside, "drinking" does not mean "unable to consent."
Drunken sex is not outlawed. The defense of "She/he said 'yes' after five beers" is deemed invalid. See the difference?

It most certainly does. You could, you know, read about the actual law.

Quote:

No. There must be an accusation that consent was not given. Then, "he/she said 'yes' while drunk" becomes an invalid defense to that accusation.

She was unable to consent. She's clearly been drinking. The officer can tell. We admitted we had sex (why wouldn't we?) and now I'm guilty of sexual assault.

Quote:

Needing "only an accusation" is how lots of laws work.

Only laws that are so broad that everybody is guilty of them.

10-19-2014 , 03:09 PM

#4504

Happy_Fish

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But you're right, I'm sure that the law never contorts itself to get a charge to stick and everybody will totes be reasonable and everybody will live happily every after. My guess is the California schools will be busy in court for the foreseeable future until they fix the law.

Article says it better than I can: http://time.com/3222176/campus-rape-...yes-means-yes/

10-19-2014 , 03:19 PM

#4505

[Phill]

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Your Boss

Serious question.

By the letter of the law, is what Ike's described a violation iyo?

Of course not. No court in the state would even consider kissing someone on the cheek to be sexual activity and no prosecutor or equiv adjudicator would ever bring the case forward.

10-19-2014 , 03:23 PM

#4506

ikestoys

banned

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 94,424

You didn't answer the question phill.

(Unless you're going to say kissing isn't sexual activity, which in that case, I got bad news for you)

Last edited by ikestoys; 10-19-2014 at 03:30 PM.

10-19-2014 , 03:44 PM

#4507

Huehuecoyotl

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ikestoys

huehue-

that article is awful.

lolikes

10-19-2014 , 03:49 PM

#4508

[Phill]

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ikestoys

You didn't answer the question phill.

(Unless you're going to say kissing isn't sexual activity, which in that case, I got bad news for you)

No court would ever consider kissing on the cheek to be sexual activity ikes.

10-19-2014 , 03:57 PM

#4509

Your Boss

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,821

Quote:

Originally Posted by [Phill]

Of course not. No court in the state would even consider kissing someone on the cheek to be sexual activity and no prosecutor or equiv adjudicator would ever bring the case forward.

Oh you.

10-19-2014 , 04:13 PM

#4510

13ball

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy_Fish

It most certainly does. You could, you know, read about the actual law.

Yeah, I did. That's how I know that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Quote:

(4) A policy that, in the evaluation of complaints in the disciplinary process, it shall not be a valid excuse that the accused believed that the complainant affirmatively consented to the sexual activity if the accused knew or reasonably should have known that the complainant was unable to consent to the sexual activity under any of the following circumstances:
...
(B) The complainant was incapacitated due to the influence of drugs, alcohol, or medication, so that the complainant could not understand the fact, nature, or extent of the sexual activity.

So, nobody is outlawing drunken sex.

10-19-2014 , 04:18 PM

#4511

Happy_Fish

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We have a case already ITT of somebody who knowingly went to another's dorm room after exchanging text messages about having sex who brought rape charges against the guy she went to see. Because even though she understood those the nature of the activity, she was too drunk to consent.

10-19-2014 , 04:24 PM

#4512

13ball

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What does that have to do with your complete misunderstanding of the law?

10-19-2014 , 04:26 PM

#4513

Happy_Fish

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http://www.fullerton.edu/alcohol_dru.../drunksex.html

Quote:

CSUF is invested in keeping our students safe. One of the dangers college students face is sexual assault. Anyone, women and men, can be the victim of forced sex or sexual assault. Coercion and/or intimidation are often used to compel non-consensual sex. Acquaintance rape or date rape accounts for nearly 90% of sexual assault incidents as reported by our students.
The most common date rape drug is alcohol. “Drunk sex” from one person’s perspective might be “rape” from another person’s perspective. California Penal Code clearly states that having sex with a person who is intoxicated is illegal and may be punishable with a prison sentence.
At CSUF prevention of sexual assault is a priority, serving to create a safe campus populated with an aware and responsible student body. As part of our prevention efforts, The Women’s Center created a video entitled “Step Up and Stop It.” This ten minute video features survivor interviews, men’s perspectives, prevention strategies, suggestions for survivors and services available on our campus.

Quote:

Legally, an individual cannot consent to sex if they are drunk; having sex without consent is RAPE/sexual assault.

10-19-2014 , 04:45 PM

#4514

13ball

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Oh, so now your story is that it was already illegal in California to have drunken sex? How many people have been charged with rape for drunken sex without the cooperation of the "victim"?

10-19-2014 , 04:47 PM

#4515

Matt R.

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Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 4,355

So basically as long as no one in the legal system follows the actual letter of the law, we're all good? This is the argument?

10-19-2014 , 04:48 PM

#4516

ikestoys

banned

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 94,424

Quote:

Originally Posted by [Phill]

No court would ever consider kissing on the cheek to be sexual activity ikes.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/s/sexual-assault/

Quote:

Sexual assault refers to an assault of a sexual nature on another person. It can include a wide range of unwanted sexual contact such as rape, forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration, forced sexual intercourse, inappropriate touching, forced kissing, child molestation ,exhibitionism, voyeurism, obscene phone calls torture of a victim in a sexual manner etc. The actor causes submission of the victim by means that is reasonably calculated to cause submission against the victim's will. Definitions of offences are primarily governed by state criminal laws, which vary by state. It is generally a felony.

http://www.casa.org.au/casa_pdf.php?document=what_is_SA

Quote:

Unwanted touching
e.g. pinching, patting, embracing, rubbing, groping, flicking, kissing, fondling, being touched
on the breasts, bum, legs etc;

http://swc.osu.edu/sexual-violence/s...ation/consent/

Quote:

If consent is not obtained prior to each act of sexual behavior (from kissing to intercourse), it is not consensual sex.

So it looks like we got USA, Australia, and THE Ohio State University.... Do we need to go on phill? The law clearly applies to kissing.

10-19-2014 , 04:49 PM

#4517

Happy_Fish

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 13ball

Oh, so now your story is that it was already illegal in California to have drunken sex? How many people have been charged with rape for drunken sex without the cooperation of the "victim"?

My story is that the colleges that actually enforce the law have decided that drunk sex is illegal.

Quote:

So, nobody is outlawing drunken sex.

Still stand by that?

10-19-2014 , 04:50 PM

#4518

Happy_Fish

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt R.

So basically as long as no one in the legal system follows the actual letter of the law, we're all good? This is the argument?

That's the argument, yes. As long as you're never accused, it's all good.

10-19-2014 , 04:52 PM

#4519

FlyWf

It's the other way

Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 58,090

Won't someone think of the rapists?

10-19-2014 , 04:52 PM

#4520

Happy_Fish

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Solid like always, Fly. If you don't want everybody who has sex to be considered a rapist, you must support rape.

10-19-2014 , 04:57 PM

#4521

13ball

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Lol at you guys thinking that kissing a sleeping spouse would ever be considered a sexual assault.

But this makes me think: Is there some limit to what you can legally do to a sleeping spouse, in your opinions?

10-19-2014 , 04:59 PM

#4522

13ball

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy_Fish

My story is that the colleges that actually enforce the law have decided that drunk sex is illegal.

Still stand by that?

Yes. Have you actually read California law? (Hint:CS Fullerton doesn't get it right.)

And, again, if someone is outlawing drunken sex you should be able to find cases of it being prosecuted.

10-19-2014 , 05:00 PM

#4523

Happy_Fish

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 13ball

Yes. Have you actually read California law? (Hint:CS Fullerton doesn't get it right.)

And, again, if someone is outlawing drunken sex you should be able to find cases of it being prosecuted.

CS Fullerton is the one who is enforcing the law. There's no due process or oversight. They have the final say in what is or isn't sexual assault on their campus.

This is another one of the many problems with the law.

Quote:

http://www.thefire.org/cases/occiden...is-misapplied/

Under pressure from the federal government to take action on sexual assault, and in the wake of a lawsuit from attorney Gloria Allred, Occidental College found a student “responsible” for sexual assault despite the fact that police refused to charge him with any crime and text message evidence indicates that both parties consented to having sex. Accused student John Doe filed a pseudonymous lawsuit against Occidental College to invalidate its finding and contacted FIRE for help.

Quote:

Following the investigation, Occidental hired attorney Marilou Mirkovich to serve as an “external adjudicator” empowered to issue a judgment in the case. After a hearing in which Doe was unable to meaningfully cross-examine his accuser, the adjudicator found that it was more likely than not that the accuser “engaged in conduct and made statements that would indicate she consented to sexual intercourse.” Yet the adjudicator also found that the accuser was “incapacitated” and therefore her consent was invalid.

Last edited by Happy_Fish; 10-19-2014 at 05:06 PM.

10-19-2014 , 05:09 PM

#4524

13ball

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy_Fish

CS Fullerton is the one who is enforcing the law. There's no due process or oversight. They have the final say in what is or isn't sexual assault on their campus.

They have final say on a lot of things on their campus. Not sure why you say there is no due process.

10-19-2014 , 05:14 PM

#4525

Happy_Fish

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 13ball

They have final say on a lot of things on their campus. Not sure why you say there is no due process.

Because there is no right to representation, no ability to confront the accuser or witnesses, etc. You know, the protections that the legal system provides.

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