Even though much less comprehensive, there is also centralized EU immigration policy, exactly because of the freedom of movement of people (or more accurately, laborers), but it's very different than the freedom of movement of goods.

Because, you know, people are not goods.

Yes, if a govt body is willing to acknowledge that immigration is causing wages to decrease for those at the bottom of the pay scale I'm willing to believe it (the reality is probably far worse). You think they would report something bad for govt. policy if it wasn't true?

The govt has already set a minimum wage, do you just want to see all workers wages fall to that level? Some aspirations you have for society there.

If all EU solicitors/lawyers were able to take a 1yr course to enable them to practice in the UK and 000's then entered the UK I presume you also feel this would have no downward effect on the price of getting a lawyer/solicitor to act for you?

Your desire to defend the EU at all costs has taken away your ability to think rationally. It's not the Brexiters who have been brainwashed.

And again you have no arguments. If your minimum wage is too low its not on the immigrants. Now you are also implying that immigrants are not just a danger to lowskilled workers but also for better educated workers because they compete for better paid jobs? The UK has an unemployment rate of about 5% which lots of experts call full employment. You just will rarely see lower numbers. Some people won't or can't work a job no matter how hard you will try. So if you now get rid of the immigrants it will of course start a competition for the best of the rest which will also lead to increased wages but you will start to lack manpower to fill jobs which are necessary to keep the country going.

For example: Do you need more or less people for your healthcare system right now? Where do you think you will find these people? You have a pretty low unemployment rate. Oh and lets not forget that you want to start reindustrialization. Where will you find the manpower for that?

OMG It's not about stopping immigration, it's about not letting the EU dominate and set the agenda and overriding sovereign states. It's about the EU rules overriding the ability to plan and deal with new arrivals.

It's about principles. Something some remainers seem to lack, given their arguments tend to be 'boo hoo let's keep in the EU cos life is easier'.

People who are willing to give up self-determination for an easier life (arguable given the EU embrace the worst of ideas that is decimating some of its members' economies - the Euro) are deplorable.

The sooner we get out of this ****storm we were signed up to by that **** Major and pulled deeper into by that bigger **** Blair, the better.

hahaha, Schultz says EU hamstrung by Brexit


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...populist-right



hahha hahaha


and this: 'and it was also right to introduce the euro'

hahahaha

"While denying that he was part of the “Brussels establishment”, Schulz suggested..."

lololollll

yeah this probably isnt the attitude that's going to get that trade deal with the us (or anyone else).

anyway, i dont really see how national parliament is the only thing that equals self-determination. some stuff is best dealt with on an individual level, some is best dealt with on a local/national/international level, but you always have a voice. i mean scotland chooses a union instead of being entirely independent, but it doesnt stop there. you could split the entire country into smaller ones with the since of iceland if you wanted to.

oh I agree some things need to be done at international level of course (environmental issues, and goods standards say), but the flow of power and pressure to centralise has gone way, way too far. Primacy of EU law is awful in its broad coverage, for example.


And whilst I look forward to the disbanding of EU v1, I hope the EU v2 does way better - it just needs to have a means to allow power to flow back and forth easily, rather than be geared to allow the power to flow towards the centre only.

when it turns out the issue of what is decided at which level is more grey then your prior post just looks like you throwing a tantrum.

lol okay. I call it discourse, you call it tantrum. Sure. Fine. Whatever.

True. Thing is, a lot of experts, politicians, particularly Cameron, are broadly in favour of more power to local governments and the national parliaments in the UK. Khan wants more power for London.

Then suddenly re. Brexit they prefer continental central planning for budgeting and legislation. It doesn't add up.

Especially when they all said the EU couldn't work without reform, and then they demonstrated that reform was impossible despite throwing everything at it. That is a hugely strong case for Brexit on it's own.

Yes, but the EU doesn't seek to be genuinely international being mainly restricted to a white-majority peninsular of western Asia. We have ISO for genuinely international standardization where required.

Good quote from Schulz, admitting “The same people who nod along in Brussels pretend at home that some anonymous force put pressure on them. That is deadly.” This is the kind of thing we are talking about when we talk about lack of accountability and it seems to be built into the system.

so the thing that's in crisis given a leave vote isn't the UK, it's the profession of economics. lol.


https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-...ief-economist/

This is also hilarious

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/nicola-stur...brexit-1599902

'I'm not bluffing! I really mean it!'

That has about as much leverage as a rubber crowbar.

At some point in the future it will have to be centralized on a much bigger scale if we want it or not(UN maybe or something completly new) since the alternative will be endless wars for the last remaining resources on this planet and other stuff too.
It sounds nice for a lot of people to be in charge of their own fate and have to care only for us Germans, Brits or whoever. Unfortunatly I dont think that Europe has so much bargaining power and resources left(correct me here if I am wrong) and if we don't want to lose in a power struggle with other far bigger nations we have to stay together. China is already investing heavily in Africa for access to their resources and we can't compete with them each on their own. Russia can just wait until the EU dissolves and we will be totally depended on their goodwill when they charge us heavily for their natural resources.
A lot of our personal miseries is blamed on immigrants when our countries governments fail to make the right decisions. Lacking investments in education, science and other stuffs will be a huge problem in the upcoming years. We should know that businesses only look for their advantage. If we cant offer the well educated manpower they wont stay forever if they can get cheaper labour somewhere else.

Self-determination will you only get so far. Do we have to improve the EU? Sure. But everone should ask themselves what they are doing for that matter or if everybody is just looking for the simple shortterm out. I dont think that this will be a longterm success story if nationalism has a comeback win.

You people really are clueless. You constantly point to expert opinion when it agrees with you and scoff at it when it doesn't.

Meanwhile in the real world the value of sterling has tanked wiping 20% off the value of everyone's money here. That's a big ****ing deal. Your partisan bull**** is really annoying.

So you are getting 20% less for the same money?

Of course you're not. More hyperbolic project fear nonsense you feel compelled to parrot.

I'm sure some of you remainers embrace bad news like some medieval supplicant revels in wearing a cilice. You like the suggested damage over the reality. You revel in the self-inflicted fears of the future.

Now you understand the business of retailing better than the ex-boss of Sainsburys and chairman of BT?

Price rises coming

"British shoppers should brace themselves for higher prices following the steep fall in the pound since the Brexit vote, the former boss of Sainsbury’s has said.

Justin King said supermarkets would be unable to absorb the recent rise in the cost of importing goods caused by the falling value of the pound against the dollar and euro. Instead, said King, they would soon pass on the costs to consumers in higher prices.

Mike Rake, the chairman of BT, speaking at the same conference as King in London on Wednesday, said imported mobile phones and broadband home hubs were already 10% more expensive and the cost would have to be passed on to consumers in the near future."

When the post-Brexit hedges that retailers had taken start expiring early this year, prices of imported goods will rise significantly.

3 So your money is worth 20% less right now? That's the claim I was answering.

When remainers stick to reality and avoid hyperbole, it makes discussion possible.

Some can't avoid it tho.

Now that's what I call reality.

Not all remainers cry wolf, at least.

Yes that's what a fall in the value of the pound means.

How did you manage to turn on your computer without electrocuting yourself?

It depends on how you spend it.

This argument is silly.

purchasing power parity is a thing. some things you spend your money on, like the wages of other brits, fell at the same speed as your wages did, so in real terms youre not 20% poorer. it's more like maybe 10%.

Can I just check. Do you think your weekly shopping is diminished by 20% since June 23rd?

Yes if it's so - otherwise I'll assume no, and take your apology as implied, no need to feel bad about admitting you're talking nonsense.

Can I just check - Do you think your entry to the Pokerstars Sunday Million has not increased by ~20% since June 23rd?