"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! - Page 91 - Other Topics Forum - Discuss Pop Culture, Arts and Entertainment

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"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode!

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07-30-2011 , 07:34 PM

#2251

soah

Unexpected

Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 61,666

Isn't his grammar correct though? You wouldn't use the present tense to speak of someone that you only knew in the past, even for permanent qualities.

edit: a better way to put it would be that you can't just switch tenses in the middle of a story

Quote

07-30-2011 , 09:32 PM

#2252

private joker

Most Definitely

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 25,244

Yeah I mean people use the past tense all the time that way.

"Whoa, did you see that girl who just walked by?"
"Yeah, she was gorgeous."

Nobody is like "She WAS gorgeous? Well what is she now? Did she get ugly in the last 15 seconds?"

Once she's out of sight and in the past, you use past tense. Not really something to nit about.

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07-30-2011 , 09:46 PM

#2253

RussellinToronto

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,243

Quote:

Originally Posted by 11111

A partner at my law firm tells me, a lowly associate, that you can't start a sentence with but. He changes it to however.

This is a myth. There is absolutely nothing wrong with beginning a sentence with but. In fact, it is an excellent--often the best--way to begin a sentence, usually much better than however, and there is tons of literature saying as much. His change made the sentence worse. But he's the boss.

I was tempted to show him up by sending him an article on this topic, but I decided against it. It's really frustrating, though, to have your superiors make your work product worse (stylistically).

The odd thing about this pseudo-rule is that I was taught the equally fallacious rule that one should never begin (or end) a sentence with "however" ...

Quote

07-30-2011 , 10:16 PM

#2254

11111

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 243

Quote:

Originally Posted by RussellinToronto

The odd thing about this pseudo-rule is that I was taught the equally fallacious rule that one should never begin (or end) a sentence with "however" ...

I've heard that as well. I think there are usually better ways to write a sentence than to begin with "however," but I certainly don't consider it an error to do so, and in some cases, it might be the best option.

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07-30-2011 , 11:52 PM

#2255

private joker

Most Definitely

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 25,244

Even the whole notion of "never end a sentence with a preposition" is crap. Of course you can end a sentence with a preposition, and in many cases it's preferable. It was never a grammar rule, just a stylistic choice that pedants chose to badger people with.

(See? I just ended a sentence with a preposition).

Reminds me of the old joke:

A traveler approaches an elderly man in a suit and asks him, "Do you know where this train goes to?"
The man in the suit replies, "You shouldn't end a sentence with a preposition."
"Oh, sorry," says the traveler. "Do you know where this train goes to, ass hole?"

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07-30-2011 , 11:56 PM

#2256

Didace

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 20,465

Quote:

Originally Posted by soah

Isn't his grammar correct though?

Quote:

Originally Posted by private joker

Once she's out of sight and in the past, you use past tense. Not really something to nit about.

Oh I agree. I was tired when I first read it and the first thing I thought was, "Well, what is she now?" I realized that was silly but thought is was funny. At least early morning funny.

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07-31-2011 , 12:07 AM

#2257

ToTheInternet

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 13,876

Quote:

Originally Posted by private joker

This is the sort of thing up with which I will not put.

Quote:

Originally Posted by private joker

Reminds me of the old joke:

A traveler approaches an elderly man in a suit and asks him, "Do you know where this train goes to?"
The man in the suit replies, "You shouldn't end a sentence with a preposition."
"Oh, sorry," says the traveler. "Do you know where this train goes to, ass hole?"

Quote

07-31-2011 , 01:15 PM

#2258

ToTheInternet

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 13,876

Wow.... ****ing **** wow.

Last edited by ToTheInternet; 07-31-2011 at 01:20 PM. Reason: LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

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07-31-2011 , 01:41 PM

#2259

11111

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 243

lol good find.

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07-31-2011 , 01:54 PM

#2260

RussellinToronto

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,243

Quote:

Originally Posted by 11111

lol good find.

It's a shame that, in all that supererogatory language, the writer does not know the difference between like and as ...

Quote

07-31-2011 , 02:01 PM

#2261

private joker

Most Definitely

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 25,244

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToTheInternet

Wow.... ****ing **** wow.

I started to read that and then after a few sentences I was like

Quote

07-31-2011 , 04:11 PM

#2262

ToTheInternet

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 13,876

My favorite:

Quote:

Furthermore, if considered as an epic, The Pale King ascends the Western canon which includes Moby Dick. In comparison to Henry Melville’s magnum opus [...]

I skimmed through some of this other entries and they are equally, umm...problematic, so this isn't just a one-shot parody or something.

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07-31-2011 , 08:43 PM

#2263

SoloAJ

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 16,324

A friend from high school just changed her relationship status to engaged. Ten minutes later she posted her new status, "I am a fiance!"

I don't want to be that guy. . . .

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07-31-2011 , 08:52 PM

#2264

AngerPush

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 32,329

Quote:

Originally Posted by private joker

Well she was; she was Latina. But the rest of her English was fine, so it was still maddening.

FYP

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07-31-2011 , 10:49 PM

#2265

mikechike

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,470

Quote:

Originally Posted by private joker

Yeah that's the worst. You can go through this thread and find many more complaints about that particular hypercorrection.

If you watch Big Brother (and no reason you should; it sucks), there's a character named Rachel who says stuff like "Brendon and I's plan was to..." or "He came up to Brendon and I's room..."

It's absurd.

It's more understandable when it's reality TV, but scripted shows? From tonight's Curb:

"Things aren't going so great with Suzie and I."
It's repeated twice more in the scene. So maybe the writers are aware it's wrong and think that the characters would still say it. But then later on Larry gets it right:

"Things aren't going so great between me and Heidi."

Gah.

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08-01-2011 , 12:21 AM

#2266

RussellinToronto

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,243

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikechike

Better, but still not right => "... between Heidi and me."

Quote

08-01-2011 , 12:38 AM

#2267

private joker

Most Definitely

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 25,244

Well, a lot of Curb is improvised, so it isn't so much the writers forcing bad grammar upon the characters -- it's the actors not knowing (or caring) and the writers just sort of transcribing the mistake into the actual shooting script (and also not caring to correct them, if they even know to).

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08-01-2011 , 09:45 AM

#2268

GMan42

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 5,330

IYAM the characters randomly getting it right/wrong probably mirrors real speech pretty well. Even though I know the correct form, I'm sure I say "between blah blah and I" sometimes when I'm not thinking about it.

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08-01-2011 , 09:46 AM

#2269

kitaristi0

l'étranger

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 16,139

Quote:

His three most frequent pass lengths were 13, 10 and 16 metres which made up 5.32%, 5.15% and 5.04% of his total passes.

Do I need a 'respectively' or ', respectively' at the end there or can I trust that my reader understands that 13 metres goes with 5.32%, 10 with 5.15% and 16 with 5.04%? It just seems unnecessary to me to include it if I have two lists which are in the same order.

Quote:

In 2006/2007 passes on the left wing made up 4.16% of his total passes while passes on the right wing made up 10.74%. For the other four seasons the corresponding figures were 4.88%/11.73%, 4.88%/7.54%, 8.32%/7.17% and 5.71%/11.83%, with 2009/2010 the only season to break the pattern.

What about here? I think the case for including a 'respectively' somewhere in here is stronger than the previous one but I still feel the reader should be able to understand from the context of this and the surrounding paragraphs that the other four seasons are 2007/2008, 2008/2009, 2009/2010 and 2010/2011 and that the left-right percentages are listed in that order.

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08-01-2011 , 10:39 AM

#2270

RussellinToronto

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,243

Quote:

His three most frequent pass lengths were 13, 10 and 16 metres which made up 5.32%, 5.15% and 5.04% of his total passes.

Quote:

I think your instinct, to leave it out, is sound in both cases. In your first example, putting "respectively" at the end is quite awkward sounding, so if I were going to use it I'd try to put it in earlier instead: "which, respectively, made ..." But the sentence seems better without it.

Quote

08-01-2011 , 11:53 AM

#2271

DDNK

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 2,591

Quote:

Originally Posted by private joker

No, a plane is being boarded. A flight is boarding. A flight is an action -- a group of people taking a plane from one place to another at a stated time. So that action is underway beginning with boarding. The flight is boarding.

A plane is a physical mode of transportation onto which the group of people making up the flight is going. So the plane is being boarded.

I'm still not feeling it. "Flight = boarding." Seems off somehow. Would you say "the flight is midflight"? I feel like we use "flight" as a stand-in for the physical plane in these situations. When we say "the flight is landing" we don't mean "flight AA9338 is in a state of 'landing'", we mean "the plane of flight AA9338 is landing (continuous tense)."

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08-01-2011 , 03:01 PM

#2272

soah

Unexpected

Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 61,666

I did some google searches for the various phrases and looked at the quantity of results and the context that they appeared in. It appears that more often than not, "flight" and "plane" are used in distinct manners and approximately correctly. Specifically, "the flight is landing" is far less common than "the plane is landing" and is used in contexts such as "30 minutes after the flight is landing..." which refers to a scheduled landing time.

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08-01-2011 , 03:33 PM

#2273

ToTheInternet

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 13,876

I think definition two here justifies the flight is boarding.

Quote

08-01-2011 , 04:22 PM

#2274

Brocktoon

Unreada Bill

Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 8,674

I'm not sure how widespread this one is, but I've met many people who think the past tense of the verb stay is "stood".

For example they would say, "I didn't go out last night. I just stood home instead."

Quote

08-01-2011 , 04:42 PM

#2275

11111

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 243

Quote:

Originally Posted by RussellinToronto

Better, but still not right => "... between Heidi and me."

Any authority for this ordering rule? I'm not saying you're wrong; I just haven't seen this rule before. I was always under the impression that "me and Heidi" was perfectly fine there. Of course, in the subjective, you would never, ever say "I and Heidi went to the store," so maybe it's a consistency thing?

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