I disagree with this. Joker seemed to me to be the most honest character in the entire film. Lying about which one was where in the Rachel/Dent scene is the only lie I can think of, and even then he told them where they both were. The rest of the time he was brutally, laughably honest. He followed through on everything he threatened to do, even when it seemed impossible. Conversely, all of the "good" guys were lying all the time. Gordon lied about dying, Dent about being Batman, pretty much everything Bruce Wayne does, etc.

Would faking his own death seem out of character for Gordon as well?

I like that lie though. He knew only Batman could save one and made sure the most important one to him would die.

Here's a solid list in case you or anyone wants to go nuts on Batman.

http://comics.ign.com/articles/624/624619p1.html

And Grant Morrison is currently writing the main series, and he's probably one of the top 5 writers in comics history. Starts, 655-658, little hiatus (another through 670-71), then starts again at 663, leading all the way up till last issue #678. All one continuous story leading up to Bruce Wayne "never being Batman again" according to the writer. Very good stuff.

I admit I was exaggerating about Joker lying numerous times before that, but even still, Batman didn't even hesitate when he told him who was where. It's a moot point I guess and wouldn't really change anything, it's just something I noticed.

Am I the only one who thought at least while watching the movie that in the scene where Alfred withholds Rachel's note from Wayne & eventually burns it, that it would have almost been better off giving it to him so he knows she really was in love with Dent? Either way it's agonizing, but for the rest of his life he thinks she would be there with him, when in reality she chose Dent. Even if the difference between knowing and not knowing isn't that much, it also is the TRUTH, so with that said I think Alfred should have just given Wayne the note.

Anyone have an explanation on why Batman didn't just take Joker out when he was going at him full speed on the motorcycle (we know he doesn't kill, but why not just clothesline him/take out his legs instead of crashing and putting himself in danger)

*In Peter Griffin's voice* No.

If superman was thrown in the mix, it would completely blow the series again.
It isn't believable. You might as well get Ahnold to play him.

So like I said, it would suck.

As for Two Face being dead that would mean Batman killed him and broke his rule, which is pretty much what the entire movie is about so I don't think he's really dead.

Not really out of character for Gordon considering he faked his own death.

so $155m opening weekend, $198m counting overseas...absolutely sick. this line made me lol from wwtdd.com

"Everything Ledger did in this movie was ****** awesome. "And here we go" is not an amazing line. Picture that on this page. It's just four little words. Ledger made it awesome. "Why so serious," is an empty, ordinary line. Ledger made it great. This sucks. I can’t believe he’s dead. Most actors ****** suck. There’s only like 7 good ones. Now there are 6. Now pretty idiots like Channing Tatum will ruin more of my movies, reading lines like his script had the dialog written upside down and backwards by a 12 year old downie. Channing, if you're reading this, and later today you feel a pop inside your head, it's because I just threw a rock at the back of your skull. Hey, look, over here, it's me, Brendon, from that website. You Suck."

tdarko, I grew up and Plano and spent plenty of time at that theater.. heh

Anyway, sick sick movie. The social experiement was so great. I definitely thought whoever pushed the button would blow up and not the other one. The choose your girl or the world bit is kind of overplayed, so I really liked how Nolan did the save Dent or save Rachael scene and Joker obviously tricked them.

Great great movie

He faked his own death to protect his family and capture the Joker, not to cover up for a murderer. Going undercover is not illegal and something that cops do to catch crooks. There was nothing nefarious associated with Gordon faking his own death.

Gordon is the only character whose life work is to abide by the rules. One of my issues with the movie was that Gordon agreed much too easily to help Batman cover up Dent's crimes. Yes, it was for the greater good, but Gordon has always been about justice and following the rule of law, not the greater good of society (allowing Batman to interrogate Joker was another thing that went against the Gordon character).

I thought this movie was terrific. Also it is now the most overrated film of all time, and nothing else is even close.

In terms of it being the most overrated film ever, you gotta keep in mind that everyone is still in shock about this movie.

Millions of people were going to see it and like it no matter what - Batman fans
Millions of people were going to see Heath and like it no matter what - Heath fans.

But I don't think any of us were expecting the movie, or Heath to completely floor us.

It opened 3 days ago, of course people are going to think it's the greatest movie ever.

I just got back from it. I went to the showing at 1:20 P.M on a Monday to minimize the amount of people in my theater, but a suprising number of people apparently don't have jobs. Did this movie inspire anyone else to burn their bankrolls when they got home?

Really? I think most people were expecting to be completely floored by this movie and Heath Ledger's performance.

Yeah that comment is a little lol. Every prescreening review or trailer or other piece of viral marketing indicated that this would be awesome. Why do you think everyone was so excited to see it?

wow. jeez guys.

i have to say that one of my favorite things about this movie was that it was "smarter" than your average comic book movie (or in fact, just movie in general these days). by this i mean that every time something happened we didn't have a totally ridiculous, horrible dialog, quick scene where someone awkwardly filled in what's happened. that sort of dumbing down of tv/film is exactly the thing that makes most smart viewers go "ugh" and roll their eyes. (for more quality viewing, note that say, the wire, never explains stuff like this.) having the viewer actually have to... THINK... once in a while is a pretty good thing.

things in this movie fell in to 2 categories:

1) suspension of disbelief. there's things where you just have to not think about how they could have possibly pulled it off, or it falls apart a bit. (maybe not, maybe the joker always has time to do these things, i haven't seen it enough to check timelines beyond "omg evil supergenius" for all the things that go on.

2) not very subtle, incredibly easy to see what happened, no reason to show them: things like "how did he get out of the box at MCU or wherever?" now, i'm not saying that i see a good reason that they should have had a cop in there, but are you kidding me, you can't figure out how he got out?! the guy came over to beat his ass, he put the broken mirror to his throat and either that guy or someone on the outside of the room left them out. more likely someone on the outside since if such a room has a lock you wouldn't expect it to be accessible from the inside (again, another good reason not to have a cop in there).

anyway, i'm not going to argue for lack of plot holes (joker leaving the party in wayne's penthouse, while reasonable (dent wasn't there, batman and cops all knew where he was,) is a little strange). but saying "i wish they'd explained more of the subtle stuff" and then having things like this be the example is pretty weak.

i too felt like the change from harvey to twoface was pretty rushed, but i think that's consistent with the way they handle the character both in the cartoon and the books. harvey = great guy, accident -> instant mental break.

those arguing that the fall killing dent and not harming batman grievously is nuts should remember that one of them is a random dude in a suit and one of them is a guy in peak physical condition wearing some kind of super spelunking outfit that i'm sure we're to assume has great impact resistance.

blah, 5pm, time to leave work.

I think he wanted to kill him but decided otherwise at the last second.

Yes, and then cut to Batman with his head slumped standing on the pile of rubble where Rachel blew up. That was as artistically mesmerizing of a sequence as I've ever seen in a movie. The nurse outfit with the hospital blowing up was pretty good too.

Anyone think the way joker just appeared, and he BSed about his scars, leaves them open for a "Joker Begins" type prequel? That could be pretty cool. Big shoes to fill, but maybe someone could do it.

Read how Radiohead just did their video for "House of Cards":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Cards_%28song%29

It's not much of a suspension of disbelief at all that a billionaire head of a company that has made all sorts of outrageous **** could swing something like this.

Yeah except Gordon didn't even tell his own family that he faked his own death. Faking it had its downsides, but he knew the greater good outweighed those. Also, Gordon being elevated to commissioner might have some more to do with his "for the greater good" evolution. He has a lot of responsibility now. Why does he have to remain static? Besides, his association with Batman from the very start was illegal (as he should have tried to arrest him long ago), so saying he has always been about following the rule of law is a stretch.

of course I can picture a number of ways this COULD have gone down. for all I know Joker had a key the whole time. I guess my point was that it was weird for them to skip this scene. it's not like showing his escape would have taken away from Joker's supergenius, or by NOT showing it it added a layer of mystery of coolness to the movie.

they just....didn't show it.

I thought that was weird for continuation sake.

I feel like that happened a couple times in the movie. thing just happened without a great explanation or were a bit confusing (as others have said, why did they pin Two-Faces killings on Batman instead of Joker/Joker henchman? and how did they come up with the number again (or mention a specific number in the first place?), or why the **** couldn't batman just grapple hook Joker or something instead of crashing his bike and almost killing himself)

another example would be Bruce Wayne driving around the hospital and getting policemans names, finding out which ones had relatives in the hospital...and then assuming those ones would be corrupted by Joker I guess? or mb I missed something simple I guess.

what I'm saying is there is a difference between wanting recaps of the action (which I agree is almost always awful and awkward) and giving a reasonable explanation of things in the first place. I can also see that some people will just say "suspend disbelief!" but I would personally just rather have some good explanations - or at least some hints - for medium size plot lines. mb just me.

Right. You could see it open, but then get overwhelmed at the weight of two people. I did appreciate how they mostly tried to obey the laws of physics, or at least come close. Like when people would come flying through a window, they would tumble for the momentum, not just plant and start fighting. I wonder Nolan was always as bugged about that kind of stuff as I am.

According the usher in our theater, there was an audio clip at the very end of the (super long) credits - of two-face saying something to indicate he's still alive. We waited for it, but it never came. He thought they may have taken it off, or it was only on the imax version or something. Either way I'd be willing to bet fairly certainly two-face isn't dead.

This is a plot device I always have a problem with. Once you show a character presumably dying, then have subsequent scenes where other characters confirm he is dead, and then you say "Not for reals!", it completely destroys any assurances the audience has that any future deaths actually happen. That's why there's debate about Two Face, but hell, for all we know Rachel Dawes will be the villain in the next one.

Having said that, I think it actually makes it more likely that Dent is really dead. Nolan seems to be too smart a filmmaker to think he can get away with that trick multiple times without exhausting his goodwill with the audience. He head-faked us with it in the first one, actually did it in the second one, and so I don't know where he's left himself to go now.

Also, I'm not really sure what Gordon faking his death really accomplished. It allowed him to drive the truck in anonymity? Enabled him to hold a shotgun to the Joker's head? I don't see why it had to be Gordon who did these things. Was he the only competent cop in all of Gotham? I'm prolly forgetting some super-important reason for it, but I can't think of it at the moment.

I thought that it was little scenes like this which made this movie so awesome. This scene shows that Batman is really limited to the night time and it also shows Bruce's intelligence and detective skills.