I have talked extensively with cftw about this topic, and I 100pct agree with everything that has been said. The only thing I think I believe that was left out was that I don't think the coaches are necessarily trying to scam people. I think they mostly just have a huge ego and can't admit to themselves that they aren't winners in today's games. They honestly believe they are winners still and believe they can provide proper coaching. I don't feel near as upset towards these people as I do towards someone like Jason Ho.

Some surprisingly good posts here for NVG. Good points OP.

I just want to point something out. When the Stox poker scandal initially surfaced on 2+2, the thread was immediately locked and moved to the MOD Forum for discussion.

This thread: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/10...-moved-695466/

Another thread was started almost immediately titled Where did the Jason Ho thread get moved to? That thread was then almost immediately moved to the Coaching advice Forum. I used the word buried, some have implied that it was covered up. I then posted the following in response to TT's reasoning as to why it was deleted and then moved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *TT*
All of the accusations were made by anonymous posters hiding their identity used to slander Jason Ho. When 2+2 management gets wind of something like this occuring we will always shut it down, regardless of the truth in the matter; we cannot allow the forums to become a "bully pulpit" to pick on a target anonymously, the target has the right to know who is accusing him. Everyone who posted anonymously will be banned, the anonymous accounts aren't welcome here. From what I have read so far the accusations are pretty serious by the motive of the accusers (with the exception of CasperW) seem to be disingenuous, why hide behind an anonymous gimmick account if your trying to have the losses repaid?

TT, I guess no 2+2 management has gotten wind of this thread yet huh?


http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...wonder-710639/

It's a thread in NVG thats been up going on 5 days now where the OP posted this: "Yes, I'm posting under an alias, because attacking boywonder...".

So the anonymous poster starts a thread slamming a coach, and not only was the thread not deleted, but he was not banned.

Not only has a MOD, Krantz, who I also believe is a Deuces Cracked coach posted in the thread, but he takes a few backhands at boywonder with comments like this:

"boywonder's post was pretty pretentious but led to a lot of good discussion IMO. I don't think his first video was very good or original, and think he has a lot to learn about teaching people to play better poker and be better poker players. But I'm sure he has a lot he can teach, and his videos will inevitably get better too."

TT, can you explain why that thread is still alive?

I mention this because I see 2+2 as looking out four us, the players. I do not know how much Stox pays for their sponsored forum, but I question why the boywonder thread is still alive.

If done right, a coach-rating service that incorporated in proper proportion coaches results, coaches theory knowledge, coaches ability to strucutre lessons that target key material, coaches ability to target lessons to individual student, student' long-term results, students positive/negatives about the experience. I already have intro and exit/satisfaction surveys for all my long tem students, and I think someone could do a real good job of balancing all the metrics, not necessarily translating them into a dollar value, but covering enough info that people can make informed decisions. If Iweren't biased and so busy, I'd love to involved with aproject like this. Beyind the basic training site video rating scheme which is so selfselecting. and doesnt touch the high-priced 1-on-1.

It need to be done, by someone impartial and respected.

If you or I pulled the stunts he pulled, we would lose our accounts and our bankrolls. I resent the fact that this guy got away with cheating because he had business relations with the company.

ban

Not really interested in debating the importance of "feel" in poker, but however that may be it has almost nothing to do with the distinction between a poker coach and an athletic coach.

I'm guessing you seriously underestimate how important having a solid basic strategy, game selection, and bankroll management are compared to having great instincts (and all of the first three should be teachable).

In poker pretty much all the money is made by more or less grinding. The other stuff is just high-stakes ego contests where at least one but usually both players are quite deluded about their EV.

Variance can obscure it for a long time but except for like 3 or 4 online players, even the seemingly great players make pretty much all their money from fish and roughly break even against other pros.

This is false. I know many people who multi-accounted for rakeback purposes and simply got the new one locked, funds transferred over, and warned not to do it again. BT lost his red pro status for 6 months.

Good post. Thanks for highlighting this.

Good point.

How about this; leave my thread up, so people can make up their own minds, and in turn bring the Jason Ho thread back to NVG, where it belongs? Why would anyone that is confident in their position fear any form of clarity?

agree, nowadays so many ppl go into coaching cause they want to make some easy variance free money, i don't blame them but they generally charge way too much for what they can offer

not all do it completely for the money, some actually like coaching or it helps them to stay sharp etc..
thing is very few ppl should charge 500$/hour, and soooo many ppl are in that pricerange. truth is, a few hours of coaching arent going to make a big difference, its just part of the process, so in the grand scheme of what those few hours add to your devolopment, 500$/hour is way too much for most coaches.

To put things in perspective;
I mean, Phil Galfond makes videos for 200$ for 6months subscription, those are the best video on the internet, ok you don't get it spoonfed, but if you need it spoonfed you will never succeed in mid/high stakes. Its really a fairytale that if you hire for ex. krantz when u play 1KNL that after 4 hours with him you will crush 5KNL, a fairytale too many coaches on purpose ignore for their business sake.

Lol at donks paying $500 plus for coaching. If you are not good enough to figure out how to win on your own, given the current resources available, you should just quit poker.

some of the training sites know what they are doing

check this out: http://www.deucescracked.com/forums/...ach-becomes-a-
___________________________

why does everyone constantly tap the glass

Unqualified people performing services and qualified people overcharging for services is an unfortunate reality in a free market economy. It's especially likely to proliferate in areas such as this, where people are selling expertise in a given area and the consumers are by definition unqualified to judge the quality of the expertise. The only "solution", which necessarily will be imperfect, is the free flow of information, which in the Internet age shouldn't be that difficult to accomplish.

In this area, 2p2's policy has undergone many changes in the recent past. AFAIK, it currently is that coaches who pay a monthly fee can have a thread in the Poker Coach Listings section. This is understandably an effort not to allow 2p2, which has paid advertisers who offer poker training/coaching, to be used as free advertising by those offering for-pay coaching services. The problem with 2p2's current policy is that it is impeding open discussion regarding coaches, since only the coaches who are paying the monthly fee have threads in which their coaching can be discussed/reviewed and they are allowed to respond.

I think a return to the free-for-all coaching forum, where anyone can post anything, would be an improvement. 2p2 could still charge a monthly fee for special status (such as all threads of coaches paying fees would be listed in the forum before any others (via sticky or something similar), "Sponsored Coach" undertitle, etc.).

Not that I've seen many guys charging 1k, but do be aware if someone is beating 25/50 up (presumably multitabling) they are making 1k/hr... and the cost of coaching debatably, or rather theoretically, should include more than just opportunity cost... we are dealing with trade secrets so to speak which have value independent of the time.

This is so true.

Bingo.

And really, what could a coach tell you in one session that is so mindblowing that it is worth paying $500 an hour to hear?

And even if these coaches are good, it is going to repeated lessons with these coaches before you really do improve.

But by that point you are going to be down $20K+.

Now, some people might look down on Poker Coaching, call it immoral.
But as Canada Bill Jones said, "It's immoral to let a sucker keep his money."
Like they teach you in One-L...
caveat emptor, pal.

This. Total Life beat

If you cant learn the game from your mistakes, you will never make it.

Poker tis innate ability, you only have to look at the number of "Ive read 12 books today and stil cant beat 10nl" poasts

This was true back in 2007, when MANY people were beating 25/50+, but games are just so dry today and the people that actually crush 25/50+ over a big sample don't really want to coach because they spend their time playing instead of advertising their "omg i'm so good" services, so their rates wouldn't be nearly high enough to get them to share their real skills.

However, MANY of those same people who were beating 25/50+ back in 2007 but not in 2009 decided, "Hey, I don't want to admit to myself I can't beat the games anymore, so I'll just use my roll acquired from giant fish + a heater to bumhunt 200/400 and play 10k hands a year and lose at that even and then charge people who don't know I don't actually win anymore 1k/hour!"

+1

ugh just read this entire thread and did not find much but the same tired gripes that come up in a new thread every week lately Vet your coach, or don't get coaching, and if you're unhappy after a lesson or two, don't hire said coach again - ez game.
Also, I love the douches who always like to post 'coaching is for suckers, if you can't crush poker without coaching - LOLZ', similar to the guys who go out of their way to state they've never read a poker book etc. Good for you pal, alot of people benefit from coaching, if only shortening their learning curve considerably or getting an outside opinion on their game.

I don't necessarily agree with this, but it is an interesting point.

[QUOTE=Pokerdemic;16878683] because most ppl that play poker (including fish) know that there's a good chance that they are going to get duped into calling with the worst of it or folding with the best of it. Exploiting ppl with the intention of not giving them their money's worth is called fraud. There's a huge difference here.