Hi all, this post has been some time in the making, but I always decided against it because I didn't want to get involved in this whole "coaching is a scam" etc. etc. business. However, after talking to a student who told me some stuff about his former coach, I don't think I can stand idly by in good conscience without saying anything about this issue anymore. Before I begin, I would just like to say that I am NOT against coaching. On the contrary, I have gone through my entire poker career with a good coach and have one to this day. However, this does not preclude the notion that A LOT of coaching that goes in today's poker world is predatory practice based on the information asymmetry between coach and student.

Since the advent of TR, many poker players are now privy to information that has altered the landscape of the coaching world. People can finally see the up-to-date results of coaches whose screen names are known if they choose to. However, the fact of the matter is, many coaches DO NOT have their screen names outed and continue to make money off of the ignorance of new students and newcomers entering the poker world. There have been cases of new poker players shipping THOUSANDS of dollars (not insignificant to most people who are just starting their pro careers) for coaches that no longer win anymore. However, these players are unaware of that fact, and thus they get roped into a contract that is completely one-sided in terms of benefits.

It is absolutely immoral for this exploitation to happen. I have had students log 10 hours a day trying to improve their poker skills in the past, only to see it all go up in smoke because first of all, their coaches were not even giving them relevant information, and whatever profit they made on their own from bumhunting went to the coaches. The only reason they hired the coach in the first place was based on anachronistic information and hearsay from busto BBV'ers saying "yea, he's sick" based on a 10k sample size from 2007.

Let me just say this. RESULTS FROM 2007 DO NOT MEAN YOU CRUSH THE GAMES IN 2010 AND ARE CERTIFIED TO CHARGE HUNDREDS/HOUR TO PERPETUATE INFORMATION THAT IS EITHER NO LONGER RELEVANT OR NO LONGER TRUE IN TODAY'S GAME.

I think Taylor Caby put it very well when he said:

i've long thought that it's not appropriate for someone like me to be trying to teach players to beat 5-10+ when i don't put in nearly enough volume to be considered a true reg these days.


There is a reason coaches who charge 900+/hour are trying to get volume in coaching. Not only are games dead, but many of these players do not even win in bb/100 anymore and realize their 50k hand heaters are over. However, they realize they can still make some VERY good money off of the ignorance of potential students. If you go to training site profiles, how often do you see a profile of a high-stakes coach with up to date information if he has actually lost in the past year according to TR? What if he lost BIG? Obviously, it is the student's choice to decide whether or not coaching is worth it, but I think this issue of information asymmetry needs to be addressed.


For example, if player X charges X00/hour and has a great reputation in the poker community for having a big score in 2008 then loses HUGE in 2009, isn't it the student's right to know that coach X had a losing 2009? Don't you think that would say the student's decision a little?

Furthermore, good coaches should push for this too because it weeds out the bad coaches and gives the industry more credibility. Would you ever hire a doctor who hadn't done a surgery in 20 years to give you a kidney transplant? I'd imagine not, and coaching is the same way because of how quickly the poker landscape changes. You would demand to see the surgeon's full history before deciding on who to choose. The same should go with coaching.


Anyway, I'll probably get flamed for this post and have my words posted, or have tons of tl;dr's posted after this, but I really think this message needs to get out, and ESPECIALLY to a community like NVG or BBV, many of who are new poker players that might consider coaching in the future. My best advice is really know who your coach is and DO NOT base it purely on hearsay and reputation because poker is not a static game and the most recent results are always the most relevant.





Cliffs
--Coaching can be very good for student and coach alike
--However, coaching can also be a predatory practice based on information asymmetry (i.e. a coach having a winning year in 2007 and posting a graph, but then losing 800k in 2009 but not posting anything)
--KNOW YOUR COACH, HAVE HIM POST HIS RECENT RESULTS AND VERIFY IT WITH TR
--Coaching sites should update their coaching profiles to show these recent results to separate good coaches from bad coaches

Well said, agree completely.

Soapbox theory in full flow, try blogspot or blogger.com

I think you last sentence sums it up nicely. Anytime someone is offering a service it is up to the customer to make sure they are legit. While this should be common sense,I think it is sad that some coaches have taken advantage of student when they exist in the same very small community.

It's like Robert Kiyosaki said "I am a best selling author, not a best author"

Yeah I agree. I remember reading a lot of posts in msnl by people who I thought consistently gave terrible advice. Then all of a sudden everybody in the universe has coaching options in their profiles and these idiots had "verified coach" under their name. I was like wtf?

yea exactly. coaching should not be about marketing and a title and "oh he's a good guy" when blue collar hard working poker players are shelling out tons of hard-earned money trying to make a better living.

when i just started poker, i was completely enthralled by the "high stakes mystique" too and wish somebody had educated me on the issue.

the government should legalize poker coaching then they can tax and regulate it.

I know someone who is a friend of a friend who is only up because he is up hundreds of buyins evwise (really hundreds) and is charging an insane amount for coaching just because he looks a big winner on TR. Also, he camps these boards with a "verified coach" title and replies to each strategy question by saying exactly "raise bet shove".

I thought about outing him but then again I didn't care. What I mean is, given the huge variance of poker even winning streaks in TR don't mean anything. I guess there is no good way to do this.

Good post and very legit concern.

as someone who has never paid for coaching before but would be interested in professional coaching in the future, i'm glad to read this article.

[QUOTE=cftw;16877115]

It is absolutely immoral for this exploitation to happen. /QUOTE]

I thought poker was about exploiting edges and stupidity. So I have it straight, can someone tell me why exploiting people at the table is ok, but exploiting people away from the table triggers moral outrage? I am missing something.

^^^

Are you really that stupid or are you leveling?

can we name and shame to make this thread more interesting, please?

LOL @ getting a coach for poker.

i really am that stupid. if the answer is that obvious pls to explain it to me in 4th grade terms so i can understand

lol @ the phrase "blue collar hard working poker players"...oh cftw from his 10/20 ivory tower

haha j/k man, the phrase is pretty funny though

One of the most successful coaches, mdma, has zero known results. Also, I don't think being a winner at high stakes is what makes someone a good coach necessarily. Also, it depends what kind of coaching.

I agree that a lot of completely unqualified people coach and stuff, but I think reputation is pretty important when looking for a coach, and good history+referrals are probably the best indicators.

If you know someone who coaches but isn't qualified to do so, don't you think it's your moral obligation to out this person to prevent him from scamming people? Or at least warn people?

I agree with everything OP posted but you also have to take into consideration that some coaches take shots in nosebleeds and sell off most of their action just to run bad in some random 10k hand sample. But I do agree that if you feel like you could use a good coach, make sure he is actively playing at least one limit above the one you're trying to beat and beating it at a solid clip.

Exactly, the benefits of having a poker coach are minimal at best. And I know this for a fact, as a life coach with a lot of poker player clients, I have seen poker players throw money away on poker coaches over and over again.

Pokerdemic, come on man. Everything in the world is done in terms of exploiting the lack of intelligence/understanding of others. People who hold that information use it in ways to profit from others. Some of it is fine while other instances are highly immoral and essentially stealing. That's why in regulated industries, the government institutes regulations so that information gap cannot be fully exploited. Obviously, there are no regulations here.

Regarding the specific difference you're questioning, choosing to enter into a game where you know full well that others may be better than you is completely different than someone essentially lying to someone else about the benefit of a service he will receive solely because the consumer doesn't have knowledge of what he should be looking for (because it is being intentionally withheld).

edit: not gonna continue on this point because I don't want to derail a good thread.

good post

what is tr? ptr/table ratings?

cause if so thats off by a LOT.

also judging by 'recent results' will just mean whoever is running hot now would make a better coach? surely a better judge is whoever has put up consistency over the past 3-4 years?

Yes, I agree with what you are saying and it kind of goes along my point.

People assume if you are "beating" nl40k over 20k hands, then you must be awesome at coaching NL50 - NL1k. The opposite is often true. In a lot of cases, as long as a player just says he PLAYS NL10k+, potential students start foaming at the mouths and thinking of how sick this player must be, when in reality this player probably just ran hot when taking a shot back when games were soft.

However, even in cases where a coach is getting absolutely waffle crushed (like losing at 10-20bb even) but played nosebleeds at some point, they are able to still get a ton of students to pay exorbitant prices.

Thus, I agree completely w/ your point that the best coaches aren't necessarily the sickest players and student evaluations are very important. The main problem with this is that this creates a moral hazard for unsatisfied students. Many students are actually scared to complain about a high stakes coach because more times than not, their cries will either fall upon deaf ears or they will get flamed for it.

It's the same reason I still won't name names.

I learned all about blue collar after "losing" 70k in flips at 10/20 and working for 10 dollars an hour