Nowhere in the advertising does it say 4 million guarantee, it says 4 million estimated.

I think everyone saying QR is why it performed lower than usual is being reactionary

This type of tourney should be able to work well with buy ins of $200 or less. Once you hit the $500 mark and this tourney now starts becoming an investment as opposed to some fun. And recreational players are not willing to fire multiple $500 bullets for a crapshoot let alone what the buy in for this was.

To the TD if he's available for an answer? What is the motivation for this type of offering. Is it to help players or is it to boost revenue? If it's the latter and the alternative is no live poker then people might be a bit more understanding.

Last year they got 716 entries for $2.4 mill prize pool

This year they estimate a $4 mill prize pool and get 593 entries for $2.1 mill prize pool.

Obvious failure to grow.

Allowing someone to buy in so late into the tourney with such a deep stack is absurd.

Most players don't want it.

The fact that there were competing tournaments means little. There are always competing tournaments.

I just cant believe you can be such a disgusting winner allen. Why so much vitriol for Mo and the Bike? Seem like a petty child who didn't get his way calling it a "huge flop". As someone who was there, I think it was very well run and incredible value. It basically turned into the Winstar tournament with better structure. Blaming the concept of QR on this is insane as clearly numbers were affected by Barca and Florida. It honestly baffles me the level you drop to when your interests are negated, between this thread and your attacks of Tommy from Venetian it seems like you really are just a crier who wants their way and in no way care about the good of the community.

"thanking" Mo for his "ridiculous" concept is so gross and demeaning it makes me wonder how you have any credibility.

this message was "rabbi" approved

Certainly there are multiple reasons why it fell way short of the $4m estimate, but I don't think anyone can say that the QR helped in any way, and I think it's not unlikely that it was a marginal net loser for the event.

My takeaway from the experiment is that the Mega Millions event shows QR done right because the buy in levels allow the casino to capture wider segments of the poker playing community. The low day 1 entry ($260) caters to a huge pool of recreationals who wouldn't play a $3k event, and the $3k day 2 entry caters to better bankrolled elite players who would mostly never bother to sit through a high variance, fast-structured liveament.

When you apply the same concept to a higher priced event, you are already starting with a much smaller pool of players able and willing to enter at the day 1 buy-in level, so you really aren't capturing a much wider segment of the available player pool by letting people buy in on day 2 for more. And it does seem like the QR structure did keep some players away. So they shouldn't repeat it.

First of all Florida main hasnt even started yet. Barca may have taken a few players but not many that would have played a $3500. The $10k reload would actually tempt those who were considering barca.

There was stiff competition last year as well. They went directly vs florida main and winstar and drew a higher turnout.

The same event this year without qr would have had a higher prizepool.

I think you just let everybody that wants to buy in to the final table for 45% of the prize pool! and give them an average stack, and you limit it to 24 total players at the final table.

Boom imagine the meta game of playing with 24 players at the final table of course only 9 get paid. 12 people see the flop, here we goo weeee. That would be exciting...

It didn't directly compete with Hard Rock last year, the main took place after as I was there at the Hard Rock until the end of it and still made it to LA to play days 1B, 1C, and to buy into day 2.

Ok but it did compete directly with winstar which I made right after I cashed florida last year.

It was still a cross country trip for one event for all the players in florida last year.

This year nothing at all competing except wsop circuit in foxwoods (different customers) florida prelims (different customers) and ept Barcelona maybe a few players there.

The numbers dropped significantly from last year as well as from the $4m "guarantee".

How is it gross and demeaning? I found it funny. I'm sure that Allen is actually thankful to Mo for the offering that caused him to go elsewhere and ultimately win 170K. It's funny how things like that happen.

We are not going to be able to tell whether QR caused less players / more players, less prizepool / more prizepool. For being a bunch of poker players you'd think sample size would come into the argument. You don't know if someone that bought in for 3700 only came because they had the option to buy in for 10K if they busted, and they ultimately did not bust. Maybe there were 50 people in the field that would have exercised the 10K option if they had busted. Maybe there were 50 people back home sitting on the couch instead of playing because there was the 10K option. It's really hard to tell.

Still, the idea of QR is really bad for the amateur/smaller bankroll players, especially in the events where there is not a premium charged for the day 2 buyin. For example they had one event in July where a $125 buyin received 13K in chips (5% of the field moved on), a $250 buy in received 25K (10% of the field moved on) and a $2100 day 2 buy in received 250K at the 6K (roughly average stack), that automatically received $400 back for cashing. The day 2 player spent $1700 to get average stack, they spent considerably less per chip. I think 120+ people exercised this option because it was good value, but it certainly isn't good for the amateur taking a couple of shots at the 125 or 250. Someone rolled for a $1700 buy in would be nuts to not take this day 2 buy in. You get in with average stack, the cost per chip is less, the variance is less to get to the big money and you are sitting in a room with mostly low buyin players.

It's really too bad that Mo hasn't engaged in this conversation more. It makes it seem like he doesn't have a strong reason for why this is good for most of the field or the community.

If only there were a method for a business to discover ahead of time if their target customers would welcome and participate in their concept product.

+1 to everything goldenbears said

More grateful every year for the WSOP: no unnecessarily large starting stacks, exceptional mid to late stage structure, no best stack forward/quantum rebuy gimmicks.

+1

True, though it will be interesting to see how the insane success of the Monster Stack is reflected on the 2015 schedule.

Also, it's not really fair to compare a local card room to the WSOP. People come from all over the world to play in the WSOP. The Bike, not so much. No offense meant to The Bike, it's just how it is. They need to stay in business and if the Q.R. works for them financially, they're not going to give two sharts whether or not it's "good for poker" or "good for the game".

Takedown did identify a flaw in the pricing, though it's not as dramatic as in his example which I think has the buyins wrong. But in the Mega Millions, $260 buys a 13k stack, and 5% advance, so avg. day 2 stack is 260k minus the chips not in play from the few hundred people who did not take the add-on). $5300 buys a 250k stack on day two, though at the start of day 2 payouts are already $400 or $500 so the cost is $4800-4900. They are getting probably an 8-9% premium on entering on day 2. Easily fixed if the organizers care enough about parity.

The monster stack is a great one off tournament to throw in for recreational players to get a lot of play for an affordable price. I don't think Caesars could afford to run more than one per summer and that's just fine.

More like, can Caesars afford not to run multiple monster stacks?

Voting with your dollars, that's the most effective way.

Maybe to you but your letter doesn't make it clear.

Concern is concerning. But $$ from rake is what counts.

So essentially you disagree with above claims, and believe it will actually increase entries.

The Bike clearly agrees with you enough to keep & grow the structure.

I notice correctly you put a question mark there. So far no one has provided evidence this discouragement actually occurs.

Even if it does, and the casino can makes more money running this structure, why should they change it? Their obligation is to collect max profit. They may or may not coincidentally provide an opportunity for poker pros to make an easy living at the same time.

this response is as ridiculous as chainsaws gripes

I'd be happy to play 6-max against 5 Negreanus, as long as I could wear headphones.
Earplugs>hairplugs.

Mr Chainsaw,
I'd be shocked if casinos across North America, such as the Bike, Playground, Hard Rock, and others don't end up barrrring you from their properties for constantly and deliberately trying to hurt their business with yous constant bashing of everything related to their tournaments. Realistically WHAT VALUE OR BENEFIT DO YOU ACTUALLY PROVIDE THESE PROPERTIES/CASINOS?

As much as I disagree with his methods and his clear blurring of the facts in this case, his badgering has proved some worth to the players insofar as it has improved structures. It can be debated whether that structure change is actually good for anyone but nits like himself though.

Chainsaw has some valid (cant believe I said that) complaints but it is his method of complaining that im talking about. His constant badgering ofcasinos, events, and td's of events he aint even playing in makes me wonder why they would ever want his business? It may be in the casinos best interests to say "sorry Allen, but we do not need your business now or ever".

Most businesses consider it to be in their interests to hear what consumer activists have to say.

The bike should care about its customers, about the growth of poker, etc. a money grab right now or scaring away amateurs will hurt them in the long run.

The numbers I was stating are from the 500k est guarantee in July that used the QR concept. 125 / 250 / 2100 (instant 400 rebate).