I have attended the legends of poker main event nearly every year since it's inception at the bicycle casino. The bike has always been one of my favorite poker venues. They offer a variety of mixed events and cash games and I know all the staff there by name.

This year, I have made the decision to boycott their series. It was not an easy decision, but I cannot support their concept called "quantum reload". The quantum reload format has not really been advertised extensively but has been added to the $4m guarantee wpt legends of poker main event. Most players I've asked did not even know this was happening.

Quantum reload is the latest multiple entry format incarnation. First there was reentry. If you busted you could enter another flight but not until the next day. This format seemed fine since many players were traveling a long way to the venue, and should have another opportunity to enter if they busted.

The next wave was unlimited reentry one start day or multiple start day events. Bellagio was big on this format, and allowed players to buy in $10k events as many times as needed on a single start day, to try to make day two. This is also the format for huge guarantee events like the $10 million guarantee in Florida. The problem with this format is that deep pocketed skilled players are free to enter as many times as needed on any flight, creating a much tougher overall field and discouraging recreational players from even entering. After all what recreational player wants to play in a field with 6 Brian Rasts or 5 Daniel negreanus.

The latest wave of this format is called quantum reload. Players at the bike are able to enter once per $3500 flight with 30000 starting chips. Players who don't make it through to day two, or who simply don't want to play day one at all, have an option to buy in directly to day 2 for $10,000 and join the advancing player field from day 1. The bike has changed what this $10k will buy several times. I've seen 100k in chips, "avg stack" and 60bb stack all mentioned.

It really doesn't matter what the $10k buys though, as this format creates a gap between the haves and have nots. Players who struggle to make it through day one but ultimately advance, will have to face a whole new wave of skilled players who are eager for the extra chance to buy an average day two advancing stack.

This format takes reentry one step further. At least with reentry a player had to somehow earn their way into day two. Now with this new format, the deep pocketed skilled pros have an even bigger edge. Not only can they play all 3 flights to try to advance to day 2, but even if they are unsuccessful in advancing, they can just buy an average stack for another $10k.

Imagine you are a local l.a. grinder. You win a satellite, you're playing day 1c and knock out a tough opponent, Brian Rast. You have slightly less than an average stack but are pleased to have made day 2, and to have eliminated a tough opponent. You come back for day 2, find your seat, and there's Brian directly to your left, and with more chips than you, even though you already eliminated him.

This scenario will happen multiple times. Players that made it through to day 2 will have to knock out the higher echelon players an extra time, and this time the skilled players have bought an even bigger stack.

It's easy to see how this format will dissuade recreational players from even entering, or even trying a satellite.

This format has proven successful in the past for $100 buyins where players can buyin late for $5k. This however is a world poker tour sponsored event. World poker tour titles are not up for sale to the highest bidder. If a player cannot earn their way to day 2 via several starting flights, that has to be the end of the road.

It shocks me that world poker tour brass such as Yourself and Warren Lush of party poker, as well as executive tour director Matt Savage would allow such a format to exist on a WPT sponsored event. I realize the quantum reload is a bicycle casino concept, but the World Poker Tour has the obligation to step in and provide a fair tournament for all players.

Allowing busted players to buy back in on day 2 for a premium, and get extra chips, is bad for poker and its long term growth. I will boycott any venue with this tournament format and urge others to study all the rules of any tournament prior to making a decision on whether or not to attend.

Spoke these same concerns to Matt in July when this was first announced. Seemed to me like he was open to changing this as it is certainly bad for the game. Guess not enough others voiced concern. In fact I'm sure some of you short sighted regs have pushed for this.

I think one re-entry is fair and you should be able to play all Day 1a-1d as you wish, but letting unlimited re-entries takes away from the game. This format definitely favors those with deep pockets and even worse it discourages those rec players who want to try and satty in as it is basically pointles at that point.

Unlimited re-entries needs to go altogether. Just a blatant money grab by the casinos. If they want to have rebuy tournaments that's fine, but people should never have to pay tournament rake twice.

They've been doing this at The Bike for a while with their Mega Millions tournament that's a 260 you can buy in on day 2 for 5k. I wrote an article in Cardplayer against it and have told people I encounter everywhere how bad it is. I still play it while they offer it though since it's super good for me. I dunno what this says about me but it's the reality of playing for a living I guess. EV is EV

While I agree with almost everything you said Allen, I don't think this part is true.

To think in extremes, if $10k buys T100 when average stack is T30,000 then I'm sure everyone who makes day 2 would he happy to have the pros spending way too much money for way too few chips.

So it matters, but of course the players are going to need close to fair value for their $10k and the Bike will likely give it to them.

I totally agree this is a bad thing long-term for the game of poker.

This is bad, especially when these same guys institute ridiculous rules like the "first card" rule for the "integrity of the game". I guess integrity is important when it's the players (ie, customers) being inconvenienced but anything goes if the casino wants to do it. How about the TDA (and its member directors) standing up against something like this, that will do more harm to the game than a player standing at the rail when the first card is pitched will ever do.

I agree, this is pretty awful. Also benefits the people who can do the math necessary to figure out whether the reload benefits them as it's a relatively convoluted problem to solve.

At the risk of tossing out there an analogy into which holes can be poked and in part to play devil's advocate, the concept strikes me as the poker equivalent to first class vs. coach on a commercial airline. If you're willing to pay more, you can get more, including better boarding times and the like. And so long as it's open to everyone willing to pay, it doesn't seem "wrong."

I'm not saying there aren't strong moral/fairness arguments against it, including those stated by Allen, but the poker economy is becoming more like the regular economy, with an hourglass shape. And this seems like one arguably utilitarian way to address the reality of the situation.

I wonder about the separate concern about making sure the prize pool is right. I'll be the first to admit that I have no idea how prize pool accounting and monitoring occurs, but upon hearing this the first thing that came to my mind was a potential opportunity for an unscrupulous individual associated with the venue and/or sponsor to shortchange the pool.

Um, it's not like that at all. People in economy are in no way harmed or affected by people buying first class tickets, whereas here they compete directly against these people.


Allen's general point is that re-entry and this 'quantum reload' stuff is bad for recreational players and good for pros. I'd disagree slightly.

I think the recreational players behave differently than you think. They actually like playing against the big name pros, and they play poker infrequently so when the WPT is in town if they like poker they are gonna play it regardless of whether or not it has this stuff. Also, if they get pissed off by Series X which does this, they'll just go play Series Y instead, which doesn't damage the poker economy.

IMO the biggest losers here are the second tier pros, the mid level grinders who are are better than the fish but worse than the elite pros.

These guys can afford to buy in to these events once, and have a positive ROI when playing against a field that's mostly fish. But once you allow elite pros to re-enter 3 times and also buy directly into day 2 (which causes elite pros to play events they would otherwise skip), then all of a sudden they have negative ROIs.


Anyway, I support this quantum reload stuff. It rewards better players at the expense of weaker players, and I don't think the damage it does to casual players is as relevant as you think. In general, I think that live mtt poker is so absurdly high variance, that anything you can do to emphasize skill (starting 8max instead of 9 or 10, going 6max deep, re-entry, day-2 buyins, etc.) is probably a good move.

I get the other side of it though, opposing this stuff seems totally reasonable.

Since we are doing analogies, I have one:

How about we let the NY Yankees play in the most profitable baseball market in the US. Then when they have the highest payroll to pay the players, they can buy up the best players.

It should be no surprise they had like 25 World Series wins in about 100 years?

Well, new rule. Now when the season is over, any team can pay for a slot in the play-offs. And if they get eliminated?

They just buy in again for more the next round. Someone get eliminated as wild card? No problem, just buy in to division championship. Pay to play the winner for the title?

If you lose? No problem, just buy in again and play for the ALCS champion.

And lose that? No problem, just put up cash one more time, and play the 'first' winner of the World Series. That team now has to beat you before they get the crown. And if they DO beat the Yankees, well maybe Atlanta can buy a spot to try and beat them. Beat Atlanta, and Dodgers might pony up the cash. yeah you might eventually win, but where does it end?

IF you think it is okay to constantly allow pro's at poker to buy in to the next higher levels.... what would be wrong conceptually with having Ivey, Durr, Isildur all pay up to play final tables as bustouts happen?


which

Norm Chad: Congratulations Jerry Yang you just won the WSOP Main event, what are you going to do now?

Jerry: I am going to Disneyworld, I mean Church !!!!!

Lon McEachern: Sorry to interrupt Norm, Jerry but we just learned there is a line forming around the block to play you again for the WSOP championship. Apparantly you have to keep beating anyone willing to put up money to buy in for the average stack at the table.

Fast forward to 2014 Final table.

Lon: Norm, is this final table ever going to end? I mean 8 years and there are still pro's lining up to play Jerry?

Norm: Yeah this is getting ridiculous. There are more final tables here than I have had wives..... who would have ever expected to see a "$1 million dollars buy in" in a poker tourney. Simply amazing how everyone continues to want to play Jerry....

Lon: yeah, Norm, it really is : simply amazing how Jerry continues to run like "god",

I'm not sure how this effects recs, but as a mid level grinder I definitely agree with golden bears that re entries in general effect us the most. Most mid level grinders can barely afford to fire 3 bullets let alone 5 or 6 at a 1650s or higher and it completely crushes our roi.

Have to say though, if you are an elite top level pro this has to be the nuts.

So yeah...f quantum re entries.

Even though I disagree with you most of the time you are 1000% correct on this Kessler....well said!

The problem seems to stem from setting a guarantee that's too high and then having to find a buyin structure that will have a chance of achieving that guarantee.

ISPT did this at Wembley Stadium and what a nightmare that turned out to be.

If in a world where the 'poker economy' was booming and there were more 'fish' than pro's and also fish rebuying into day2, Chainsaw would be celebrating this event as one of the best in the year.

Hilarious he writes this open letter from the perspective that he's boycotting concerned about fairness for the fish. When in reality he just knows this structure makes it too tough of a tournament for him to play in.

It's one event...

If you want to unlimited rebuy you can try a cash game. A tournament "game" is supposed to have more in common with a sporting event. One rebuy or a reload/add-on chip being included in the initial buy-in is much better, because there is a level playing-field.

Particularly relevant and attractive with tournaments is that if I feel I am evenly matched against other players at my buy-in, I don't mind playing them (and relish getting the chance to play) for relatively high stakes at the final tables/later stages of tournaments, because I am still evenly matched with the other players who got there - whereas I wouldn't be evenly matched with people who would typically play higher buy-ins directly entering a later stage of the tournament.

This....

This takes away from everything a tournament is supposed to be....

keep the playing field level.....rebuys are ok....buying into day 2 is NOT ok

If they decide to give day 2 entrants an average stack, the best protest would be for every player on day 1 to fold to the bb every hand, keeping the average stack = starting stack.

Seems like this makes all the Day ones into a sort of $3500 satellite, where you can win a seat into a $10,00 main event (that starts on "Day two"). But instead of all "satellite" winners getting the same seat with the starting stack, you can either get a larger or smaller starting stack based on how well you do in the satellite. So in a way the "main event" true Day One is actually the day when all the satellite winners, as well as those who simply buy into the main event for $10k, start play.

Ray Davis and I say THANKS "Coupon King" ...couldn't get a sniff at that kind of buy-in. What about the "guy" who grinds through 3000 players on ClubWPT and won the Legends Package? Who's getting the interview?

https://www.clubwpt.com/tournaments/...s-of-poker.php

Good luck to that guy on day two.

Basically the same for me.
I think it's awful, especially for brand name WPT tournaments. If bike wants to run their own series, like the mega millions, fine. But I think it's somewhat tarnishing the WPT. In the same way I truly hope the WSOP never goes re-entry or anything gimmicky, it would take away the purity.

So yes, I think this is awful, but at the same time I guess I'm a hypocrite cuz I am buying in day 2 of MM, however I am only firing 2 (if necessary) instead of 3 bullets in the WPT and not buying in day 2 because of it.

Dear Allen,

I'm sorry to hear all of your concerns about my "Quantum Reload" (QR) concept & you boycotting The Bicycle Casino's most prestigious WPT Legends of Poker series this year.

The poker economy is constantly evolving. Each year there are hundreds, if not thousands, of poker tournaments throughout the nation and the world. Players always have a choice as to which events they choose to play based on buy-in, prestige, and location. This newer QR concept has been a huge success for the Bicycle Casino throughout our poker series and is now an opportunity for the WPT players to experience this prize-pool increasing format, while allowing players of all skill levels and bank-rolls to play.

As for the 2014 WPT Legends of Poker Main Event:
Players are allowed to enter only once per session with optional re-entry the following day.

(1) The Day 1 player has an opportunity to accumulate more than 60 big blinds (the amount of chips received with the $10,000 buy-in).
(2) Any player is able to play one session or all sessions. As a result, the player has up to three chances to qualify.
(3) The Day 2 direct buy-in has only one chance and starts with less than average chips.
The Day 2 direct buy-in player is paying an approximate $1,200 chip premium, creating a chip value of $8,800 based on a 60 big blind stack.

The QR concept has proven to provide larger prize pools with lower buy-ins.

The $10,000 Day-2 buy-ins are directed towards a specific type of player: The skilled player, the deep-pocketed player, the satellite player. Until now, there was just one $10,000 buy-in stop on the WPT. The day 2 direct buy-in can be viewed as the official day 1 start, where the $3,700 sessions can be viewed as qualifying heats for the official day 1, where the player carries their chips forward.

Mo Fathipour
Tournament Director, The Bicycle Casino

This is unprecedented for a wpt televised event. The number keeps changing. I saw "avg stack", now youre saying exactly 60bb?

How do you reconcile the prizepool and the total number of chips in play?