i'm not even gonna read Little's response b/c quite honestly i don't like the guy at all.

but i do like you chainsaw, ur great for the universe that is poker and thats why u build a following all on your own w/o any "pro pr help."

so just understand i do listen to you most of the time and respect you plenty but i enjoj jabbing at "the waterboy" here and there just for fun!!!

see u at the tables soon bud, good look at battlecreek!!!

lol

There is a resemblance and they're both presidents.

^This.

The QR concept was fantastic for the small daily tournaments held at the Bike. Of course those were 1 day, 10k or less guarantees (as represented on the quantum tournament website), not 10k buy-ins with any prestige or POY aspects associated..

In my eyes, any structure that needs this much questioning and analysis would certainly deter amateurs and new players from playing, even regs for this particular amount. Which seems negative for poker overall.

Obviously a Huge edge here for those with the bankroll to fire away.

And massive win for Mo and the Bike- They do need to fund that hotel.

it still gives the "deep pocketed" pros the same edge here as it does in a 3700$

You can't possibly be that stupid. Obviously just trolling at this point.

its obviously the only point that matters it sucks youre too short sighted to see. every buyin level that allows that has same inherent level you just care about your own interests and the "sanctity" of the WPT its a huge joke i completely agree with zo and im not trolling at all and it sucks you cant see other peoples opinions without implying theyre stupid

Obviously the higher the buyin gets, the more you shut out recreational players. Its ridiculous to compare a borgata $500 reentry with huge starting stacks to a $10k unlimited bellagio day 1 reentry.

Zo said the edge was the same in both buyins.

The entire nature of reentry benefits deep pockets, but these huge buyin events just make it worse.

That was my exact response earlier to his question.

What an awful idea.

+1

Probably the best post in this thread. I feel the same way.

I agree that this type of "VIP buy in" is horrible for poker and I agree Matt Vengrins post was spot on.

Wasn't there a 100k super highroller with unlimited rebuys recently? IIRC some people even bought in 3/4/5 times

I'll use myself as an example and you guys can take it how you wish...
I'm a mid stakes cash game player who mostly plays in San Diego and occasionally up at the Bike or Commerce. Taking online tournaments out of the equation, I am overall down money in live tourneys and am definitely -EV in live tourney poker. Knowing this, I still use to come up to the Bike and play their tourneys because I liked the structures and buy-ins. I no longer drive up there and play tourneys because the QR structure and unlimited buy-in makes me even more -EV then I already am. I took it upon myself to read and understand the Bike tournament structure and decided it was no longer beneficial to me to play them, so I don't. That's the choice I made.

As a mostly cash game player who is +EV in the games I play, I would be pretty pissed if the casino I played at changed my cash game structure/buy in/rake and discouraged the -EV players from participating in the games I play. That would cause only the better players to sit and most likely bring my EV down by making the games tougher.

Taking my situation above into consideration, if you're primarily a live tourney pro, you want me in your tourney just like I want the -EV guys in my cash games. The QR structure does not benefit me, therefore I choose not to play it. If the Bike changed the tourney structure back to or close to the way it was, I would play again.

MO, I have played at The Bike for years and have made several FT's in big events including one where you came 2nd to me (quick brag) and I love this QR idea. Tournaments take too long especially day ones. Just let me pay the required amount to start the FT along with 9 others that are tired after battling their way through 2000+ players over the past 3-4 days. Of course I expect this option for me to have multi rebuys should I happen to take a bad beat and get knocked out. This way with 3-5 bullets I should get to heads up for the tourny win no problem.

I didn't know this thread existed until now. I voiced my concerns with the bike, and their facebook. Here are the problems I have with this. First, I am an amateur player that plays about 5 tournaments over $200 a year, along with a bracelet event. With this quantum reload you are pretty much playing a satellite. How is it fair for someone like me to grind it out until 4 am, just so a poker pro can come the next day and buy in, and receive the average stack. This is just unreal! A poker tournament will lose all meaning since it means a lot to make day 2, but now you just come back to an elite day 2 since it will be a lot more pros playing day 2. It makes me sick to my stomach, and this isn't about poker evolving, this is 10000000% a money grab by the casino. If they really cares about the people, there would be a rebuy, instead of a full re entery, which you get double the juice. I was never a fan of rebuys, but I learned to live with this, but QR outside of mega millions I will NEVER play. This is geared towards the pros, but please remember that that one time these "pros" were amateurs, and unless you want poker to die, you must do away with this disease called a quantum reload.

John

Disagree with this. Best final tables for us in the long run are casuals beating pros at the FT. and that can use the least skill requirement

anyway QR seems to be

good for casinos (more $)

good for the top pros (1 less 14 hr day than everyone else)

good for TV (more likely some pro makes the final table)

good for casuals that just want to play vs pros since some will just keep reloading

great for the handful of pros that are absolutely terrible deep stacked but fine or good with a middle/short one (especially on bubbles)

horrible for the under EV/ break even/slightly EV/good EV but don't have anywhere near the bankroll guys that think they can actually win

can't be too surprised though, I dunno how long these types of events can last these days so get the $ while you can.

Read with great interests the pros and cons of both sides of this story, most of the posts being a rehash of prior comments, but interesting, nevertheless.

I am not in the "casino" business so I can't speak to the value added to the bottom line. The basic tenet of business is that if it is a bad idea, a money loser, unfair, or contrary to the public wishes, it will soon lose favor. If they open a big box store and everyone complains about it being unfair to the small businessman, then it will soon fail for lack of business by the general public. Money talks.

If enough players do not play the QR, if TV decides NOT to air the final table, if, for any reason, it is not taken favorably by the VAST MAJORITY of players, then it will cease to be profitable and will determine its own demise.

Anyone touting the purity of poker needs to have their head examined. Poker inherently favors the pro or best players of the discipline. Whether it is the 1st day or buying into Day 2. They have no "added" advantage. They have ALWAYS had this advantage.

The option to buy in is presented to EVERYONE. If you want to skip grinding for 3x buy ins of Day 1, then buy in to Day 2. Simple. If the wording was changed, a matter of semantics, then count this as a 10k event with multiple entry satellites. It would present the same arguments anyhow. Pros have an advantage. here's a news flash...PROS ALWAYS HAVE AN ADVANTAGE.

Poker stopped being pure (if it ever was) the minute re-enry, multiple same day re-buys, add-ons, etc were initiated. If you want to go back to the roots, all tourneys should be freeze out.

Poker needs to keep evolving. It has with tourneys such as the Milly Maker, the One Drop, OFC. It has with the re-entry concept. Casinos understand poker tournaments have a large degree of luck associated with it, especially hold em, and lower buy in events. You travel a long distance and get sucked out as a 98% favorite. Sure, let's let him re-enter.

The whole argument is initiated by one player who disliked the concept and started a mini=snowball. Allen complains ALOT about every tournament. Blinds, structure, antes, skipped levels, race-offs, FCOTD, you name it. It is not surprising that he finds a complaint here. As with any player, if you don't like it, don't play it.

Casinos see tournament rake as a nice profit center. In the last 10 years, the number of casinos having conflicting schedules and increased events, with larger rakes has increased dramatically. They are cannibalizing the finite player pool and everyone can decide which casino, which event they want to play. Simple answer is, if you don't like the casino, the event or the structure, don't play it, that's a personal decision. But don't disguise your personal choice as it is bad for the game otherwise, unfair or lacks purity. That's utter bullish*t.

Maybe poker should have a handicap system like golf, based on your skill level. Lower skill players start with more chips, pros and "great" players start with less. Now the playing field is level!

[IMG]pic.twitter.com/L9J8qX0t0m[/IMG]
This is a post by Jon Friedberg of www.PokerAtlas.com:
"Am I the only person that sees this as a $10k buy in event, where players can quasi-satellite in for $3500? Feels to me like this structure allows amateurs to play at a lower buyin, giving them a chance to quality for the 10k event by making Day 2. I personally support this format, and applaud Mo & the Bike (and Matt Savage and WPT if they were involved too) in doing something innovative. It's just an integration of a satellite into a series event, rather than keeping them separate which has traditionally always been the case."
August 21 at 5:06am (via Facebook in response to: https://www.facebook.com/allen.kessl...29683933729701)

Congrats to Allen for skipping the WPT Legends of Poker and going to Foxwoods to win the main event there

Isn't it ironic, don't ya think?

Yes, thanks to mo's ridiculous main event concept I was able to win foxwoods wsopc main and $170,000! Thank you mo!

Doublejoker it's not nice to kick a man when he's down.

On this very true note, the WPT advertised this event as having an "estimated" $4m prize pool (no guarantee, obv.), but the actual prize pool was only $2.17m. In contrast, the low buy-in quantum tournament held just before (the Mega Millions), which had a $1m guarantee, had a prize pool of over $1.8m.

I'm sure some of the shortfall can be attributed to the conflict in timing with the EPT Barcelona and Thursday's start of the SHRPO Main, but I don't think it would be a mistake to call the application of the quantum reload structure to the Legends Main Event a failure. The 2013 Legends Main had 716 entrants and a $2.4m prize pool. I can't imagine they'd have "estimated" a $4m prize pool for this year without some hope of getting at least marginally close to that.

The quantum reload seems to work very well for the small buy-in tournaments where you can pull in tons of shot-taking recreationals and some deeper-pocketed pros/elites who'd rather not deal with the high variance of the day minefield. For events where the buy-in is cost prohibitive to a lot of recreationals, the mixed buy-in structure may indeed scare away some of the next tier of players without compensating for it by attracting enough people wanting to buy in for the higher amount.

Cliffs:
Good concept for small buy-in fishaments
Bad concept for elite tournaments

Meh, I disagree with calling it a failure. You mentioned the main reasons for attendance being down, Barcelona which got almost 1500 players for their main event and Florida which will be huge as well with absolutely nobody from the East Coast skipping to fly all the way to LA.

Between sats and direct buy ins they had 27 people reg today. That's just less than 5% of the field before they reg'd (566). The Mega Millions had like 8000 entries and less than 50 day 2 buy-ins, pretty comparable I'd say

Wow Congrats DJ!! Bring on the vultures !!

Obviously a huge flop. They expected way more than 27 reloads and advertising says $4m "guarantee".

They would have gotten way more than $270k more in buyins just from regular format.

No one went because of it, but they lost a lot of players who would have bought in 2-3 times each.