Relax, we are all getting our money back today...

I wouldn't be quick to say that people weren't 'killed'. It's like Chernobyl. In addition to the on-site deaths, we know more people had early deaths, we just don't know who exactly did. Sometimes these things snowball in a subtle way -- a month after BF a guy gets a stress-related disease... there's a bad reaction to a medication... -- we just don't know what portion of these cases to credit to FTP/DOJ/etc.

Mods- Can I link to igaming post to point out their crappy reporting?

http://www.******************/NEWS/archives/11164

Under US v. Ray Bitar update, posted July 2, the caption next to Ray Bitar's picture says:

"Ray Bitar made bail for $2.5 million" LOL. 5 days later, they haven't changed it.

Obviously, Ray Bitar has been in custody since the moment he returned to the U.S. As reported here:

http://diamondflushpoker.com/2012/07...t-bail-stayed/

Just thought it was funny how terribad that website is. Further proof that it should never be trusted.

People weren't killed, or at least not that we know of. People may have died as a result of what happened, but that isn't murder or whatever. Dying is what people do, it happens for positive events too. People with a serious disease often die after the December holidays because it taxed them too much. People overcome with joy for whatever reason set a (instant or delayed) heart attack in motion and die because of the "shock" of happiness.

Time forgets. Look at Dutch Boyd. He did a similar thing. There was an incredible amount of hostility and threats. He never quit playing and now nobody gives a ****.

@bbfg Okay, you've convinced me. Death is a good thing. Just make a nice soup out of the body. Don't waste the food.

very true lancy. There was even a post about him recently and a lot of people were saying what he did was no big deal now. Guy should be in prison

woke up today and saw a red tail hawk eat a mouse in my field. that's a sign of good things to come. 1 time

I d'like to bet 200$ that an official annoucement about Stars buying the assets of FTP doesn't show up by tuesday midnight US time. (by Pokerstars or the DOJ)

So if someone wanna bet, let me know. Hopefully we can find someone reputable that can escrow the bet. (i have stars money, lock, carbon etc.)

That way i feel i win something whatever happens. lol

Dying is indeed a good thing because if we couldn't die we would destroy our planet and our race eventually. But I have a sense you're trying to be ironic or something, while nothing in my post you quoted was about wether death is good or bad.

'no one' cares about him because it effected so few people compared to the 1000's effected by full tilt. This thread size alone should indicate how insignificant Dutch's dbaggery was compared to Bitar and co and the lives that were changed because of FT.

How embarrassing for poker that Dutch might not even crack the Top 10 Scum Worthy Poker Moments. He does get points for being an OG thief though.

According to the Prince Edward Island Department of Fisheries, Aquaculture and Rural Development Weekly Fish Price Report for the week ended June 30, 2012, the dockside price of lobsters (canners) was as low as $4.25 per pound.

I just like to use that low number, because I believe it puts things in better perspective and has nearly as much relevence to the issue of FTP's deposit rate.

Apparently not. Do you have any idea how "specialised companies like H2 Gambling Capital" get revenue figures for FTP?

Really? "Almost certain." Cite?

Wasn't it consensus among insiders half a year ago that FTP's assets were gong to be bought by GBT? Wasn't it consensus among insiders back in 2010 that FTP was a legit comany?

You're just making this stuff up as you go along, aren't you? This isn't the first time you have pulled out "industry standard" numbers for poker sites. I remember you claiming that the standard market valuation of online poker companies was 16 times earnings. There haven't been enough online poker companies going to market to establish a standard market valuation.

It is bad practice to apply industry standard rates to estimate the earnings of a specific companies when we know they actually lost money. The reason you keep going wrong is you mistakenly assume that FTP's performance actually was in line with standards and estimates. It wasn't.

No matter what margin you estimate FTP ought to make, the "fact" (to use the word your way) is, by BF, FTP had been losing money for years. No matter what earnings multiple you put on that, it means the company is worthless, if you value it on actual earnings.

I definitely believe you have a background in economics. An economist is somebody who can tell you why something that works perfectly well in practice couldn't possibly work in theory. Or in your case, somebody who can tell us why a company that didn't actually make a profit for years should be presumed to have made a profit.

Here, have a can opener. You're gonna need it for the lobster.

you like FACTS -show us yours that they did not make a profit.

While it is true that we can't know FTP's actual profit or loss without seeing their (unfudged) financial statements, I don't think that means we can't tell if they made a profit.

The distributions to owners were actual payments. You seem to accept that these payments existed and that they exceeded any profits that might have been made. A distribution in excess of profits is not properly a dividend because dividends are payments of profits. A payment that is not a dividend is an expense (or occasionally, but not in this case, a return of revenue). An expense larger than any profits that may have existed before that expense, by definition, puts the company into a loss position. Either before making the distributions, or because of the distributions, FTP was making a loss, not a profit.

If what you meant to say was that we cannot tell if FTP would have been making a profit if they hadn't made the improper distributions, then I might agree.

I wonder what goes through Howard's and Chris' mind (and maybe some other owners) now that Ray is behind bars facing many years in prison.
"What if Ray starts talking?"
"What if he tells I knew of.....?"
"What if he tells them we decided together about.....?"
"What if they kick in my door and arrest me?"



I hope they can't sleep at night. Vengeance is sweeeeet.

Do you accept as a fact the assertion that FTP's assets are less then their liabilities? A company cannot get into that state without making a loss.

Finally, a proper reasoned take on the profitability or not of FTP!

L and F will probably claim to have been duped and are really just victims. Well then, welcome back to the poker community fellas. I remember Doyle making a similar statement.

If it was only paying out profits to "the higher ups", then why didn't it have the cash to pay off players?

You cannot put a company into the postion of having more debt than assets without the company making a loss.

If you are just saying that FTP might have made a profit if they hadn't made improper distributions, then I might not disagree.

They may well have been duped by Bitar and his crew in Ireland, but it is a real stretch for them to claim they were "victims", don't think that will fly far with the stiffed players

A dividend is 100% NOT an expense. In fact, it does not appear anywhere on the income statement. You are wrong and your conclusion is wrong too.

glad your NOT an accountant!!!

just because they STOLE all the money does not state that there was no PROFIT---a dividend paid in excess of PROFIT is NOT an expense!! it is bad business practice and in the end THEFT !!!


If i make a million dollars but put 1.5 million in my bank account I still made $1 million dollars -I did not suddenly lose .5 million!

You cannot put a company into the postion of having more debt than assets without the company making a loss.

sure you can. I offer to paint your house for $2,000 ---- supplies cost $500. I made a $1500 profit. Just because I go out and party hard and spend the whole $2000 and do not pay for the paint I did not "lose" $500 on the job I just did. If that is what you think just TRY that on your taxes next year!!

He said an improperly distributed dividend.

If you guys really want to know Pocket Kings profit or loss, go here:
http://www.cro.ie/search/ListSubDocs...=415256&type=C

Pay 2.50 Euro for their annual returns. The earlier years, 2006, 2007, 2008, etc. are more likely to be accurate than the later years. Though obviously no guarantee they weren't lying then, I'd just say those are inherently more reliable for obvious reasons.



I certainly think that this is plausible pre-Black Friday. But, imo, it defies logic that they continued to be duped post-Black Friday, which constitutes the basis of the news allegations against Bitar. They would have to be really dumb or willfully ignorant to believe lies about why they could not make payments, or the financial status of the company after Black Friday. Additionally, the DOJ appeal of the bail states that Bitar still had the support of certain shareholders against the resistance of the passive shareholders to get rid of him.

Not the same.

This is more like you offer to paint my house for x amount of money (provide an online poker platform and take rake). I (the house owner) gives you the paint a few days before you're set to paint it. In those few days, you go out and have a paint party with your friends. Then when I ask you to perform the service of painting the house a few days later, you tell me, oops, sorrrrrrryyy I only have like 1/5th of the paint left.

So then, (if I'm a scumbag like Ray Bitar) I go out and tell other people I can paint their house but they just have to provide the paint, I use that paint to paint your house and continue to Ponzi paint until the cops shut me down for paint fraud.

At this point, some people are gonna be left with some unpainted houses unless a new paint company that also got in trouble for some paint fraud is willing to buy all of your paint company's assets and paint those houses for you.