He is claiming he know people who are 'actively' working in these programs and they're being pursuaded to come forward. Word on the UAPvine is that's the next round after this.

But what evidence do we expect them to actually show us beyond testimony? Oh right, here we go *empties bag onto table*, here's a bunch of polaroids of highly classified material I illegally snapped and smuggled out of the underground ultra security spaceship warehouse and a piece of alluminium wing I snapped off the jelly mould sports model on the way out and ooo I'd like to wave goodbye to my pension too thanks for all attending my career suicide party!!!

I'm being facetious but think about it, if you have direct evidence of alien craft in your working environment you can't just start nicking bits of it for the principle reason that if they catch you then you're totally totally ****ed. At least by retaining some level of legality you give yourself a chance. I doubt there's much burning desire to be the next Snowden or Assange out there either. You don't always get 'a pass'.

I'm not saying we don't ultimately need that evidence mind. At some point it is unavoidable. Absolutely necessary. But it doesn't seem surprising to me that we get this kind of umming and arring circus first either. These are professional secret keepers, they aren't going to play their hand all at once.

Not being able to produce proof doesn't mean we lower the bar for what constitutes as proof. Whistle blowers like Snowden and Manning gave us actual proof and yeah, they did wave goodbye to their freedom to do it. I don't think that should be necessary for whistleblowers but that is how it is now if you want to actually offer proof outside sanctioned channels. It's bizarre to think that that reality means we should lower our standard for proof. If the whistleblower isn't willing or able to take such a risk but they're a credible source than their testimony might be grounds for an investigation into finding actual verifiable proof.

Edit: I wrote this without seeing your following post. I'm glad we agree that evidence is ultimatley necessary but nevetheless you either take the personal risk to provide the evidence or your claims are going to be rightly met with skepticism until such proof is provided. It doesn't mean your claims should be disregarded, especially if you're particularly credible, but they need to be investigated. Claims from credible sources are a higher level of evidence than those coming from a random person, but they're still not proof.

Can’t disagree with that.

I think if you boil it down with people who think they’ve had some kind of interaction with this phenomena their apparent naivety and certainty lies mostly in the fact they probably do have a strong physical memory of some kind of weird event itself. Imagine what that feels like. A geuninely unidentifiable moment that defied your entire analytical apparatus. Seeing something everyone will think you're crazy for even thinking about. Whether it is or was ‘real’ real is almost irrelevant in this context. You saw it. You know that happened.

So they know, or they think they know, they experienced it and that goes a long way. But they definitely are going to use that direct memory to make informed decisions about reality, you can’t help it or you’d start lying to yourself. People who’ve had their evidence meter previously filled (and it’s ALL evidence, I think, ultimately. Just try and conduct police work without accepting any non-physical witness testimony), well, yes sure - you’re more likely to lower that standard considerably and, in general, rejoice in the moment that, huzzah, finally the wider world is forced into the same, strange psychological position for five nanoseconds. Is it real? How can it be real? But if it was real, what would it look like?

It’s a lower bar. We should have more language for extreme curiosity that doesn’t commit you to raising either flag. Honestly? I’m at ~ 79%, which is pretty alarming for me. I’m 100% certain something gaga is going on, but I don’t know if the story they want us to believe here today: the tech war and the malevolent evil aleinos, is going to necessarily be the actual truth of the truth. That would be an historical anomaly.

I have personally had a somewhat similar experience. I once took a very high dose of salvia and had total ego death. I was immediately blasted to some other place where I had no form and no recollection of life on Earth. I felt like this formless place was all of reality and I had always been there. I was communicating with another being without using language while I was there as well. Eventually, I experienced being above my real body and looking down on it as if it were something alien to me. That moment was terrifying because I had this other false sense of self at the time. When I eventually came back to reality I was left awestruck. It felt much more real or like magic than anything else I’d ever experienced. I still never for one second thought any part of it was likely to be anything but a creation of my mind. It didn’t make me any more open to ideas of spirituality but I know it would have for some people.

I can imagine that if you had something that felt that real but you couldn’t easily point to a cause like a drug that it would be much more disorienting. A lot of people don’t even need experiences that are that convincing. Just look at religious belief. Probably a tiny percent have experienced something truly beyond the ordinary and yet they remain convinced of their position without evidence. A lot of people have extremely weak skepticism.

Lol the endless hillarious adventures of Salvia continue anon. I never had much luck beyond getting to the 'no thanks matey' stage. I do resonate with the third person viewpoint though, my mind leap into a security camera at the back of the room seeing the back of my head hunched over a bong and I've kind of always been able to visualise behind the back of my head ever since. Go salvia I say. Just be prepared to feel like death or a lego brick for eternity i'sfine

I will say, for the record, I’m not claiming the DMT trips look anything like what we’re seeing with ufology lore

DMT aliens are more like rabid polymorphs, dazzling + seductive endlessly shapeshifting robotic intelligences morphing in and out of form but somehow retaining character (i know that's a mckenna riff but when you see them you realise it is basically an accurate description) preoccupied with being 'wacky', comedic and mischievous. This seems to be the common trend. Whereas ALL of the aliens in ufology are plain and dry and boring and grey and mostly useless vs a cricket bat. Apart from the Nordics. The Nordics look like proper tough bastards tbf

I think I did salvia twice. One of the times I don't remember much of the experience but the other time I was sitting on a couch and it felt like the whole thing tipped backwards, I then thought I got up-- only to discover that I was still sitting on the couch.... actually iirc it was DMT once and salvia was the couch experience. The whole living a full other life for 30 years or talking to one's long deceased grandmother was not my experience.

Jasus whatever happened to good old fashioned weed?

It’s funny you mention feeling like a Lego brick for eternity. One part of my experience that I left out was that before I “re-entered” my body I went into a pen on the floor and thought I would be stuck in that pen forever and no one would know. Makes me wonder if that’s a common experience on salvia.

Yes, they and anyone else are free to make a bunch of unsubstantiated claims. It's a free country.

Elizondo's been covered in the very first page itt already and isn't what I'd call credible.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...7&postcount=12
NASA are a civilian organisation.

As for Mellon I take it you mean Christopher Mellon?
Here's what he said re government involvement on UFOs/UAP

Semivan co founded entertainment company To the Stars Inc., so can be suspected to have a vested interest.
As can Ramirez who does the podcast and lecture/convention circuit.
Again, none of this is anything new and potential motives for such people have also been covered itt.

Yes, it's because there isn't any.

Sagan didn't actually say that. He indulged in unwise speculation about remote, illiterate tribes' records of visits by 18th-century explorers, and he later regretted getting charlatans like Erich von Daniken started. He said it was improbable that any higher civilisation had visited Earth and suggested that, if it had in fact happened, we'd know about it.

Even given the number of potential habitable planets in the galaxy, the likelihood of one of them happening to produce faster-than-light interstellar spacecraft, not only within the vanishingly small time-window of human civilisation on Earth, but coinciding precisely with the American cultural fixation on that topic during Earth's last eighty orbits of the Sun, is not really worth considering.

Hmm. You say you've covered and digested these things but your presentation is woefully disingenuous.


i mean, god yes, no, I can't be bothered to have that argument forever either. It’s very circular and ultimately you just don’t believe them which is totally fine. But you have conveniently left out all the parts where they've verified themselves in some convincing and extremely hard to fake fashion. Zondo is on the official tic tac footage withdrawal slip, is mentioned as AATIP/AWSAP head on official internal IOPC complaint forms, has been repeatedly vouched for by all the key players above him - Senator Harry Reed, Colm Kelleher, Mellon - and other tangential key players such as Fravor, Dietrich, Graves, many others who were introduced to him under that role; and lets be real there is ZERO chance NASA snap him up without the authorisation of DoD given his public profile as a whistleblower. That would be ludicrous if he was lying.

Mellon, as I'm sure you know, has famously and repeatedly recanted those statements in his blog and personal appearances many times claiming to have been shown exactly how those programs could be hidden in plain sight after all by those who might know about it.

Mellon is so rich he doesn't have to breathe if it doesn't please him. The idea he's doing this for a grift or as some late stage senile ego drive seems physically impossible given his super straight nerdy personality and already spotless reputation.

Semivan and Ramirez alright, they always looked sketch to me too but they are ultimately all telling us the same story. It matters. You can disbelieve them of course and I get it truly - they are proven disinformation agents and the claims are particularly wild - but it's wrong to say they don't count. We can't just throw selective high level witnesses away, esp if your argument is that there could be no central 'conspiracy' to make us believe such extraordinary things.

Cogs matter. And that's before we get to the NIDS, Puthoffs and Eric Davis' and Kit Greens and all that gang of contracted science boffs who all corroborate this sequence of events and have spilled the beans to that effect. Not to mention the what? dozen+ direct first hand witnesses to Nimitz that have come forward since 2004? All 'available' to question and annoy on twitter. You make it sound like disclosure is being led by a very small uncontactable collection of unrelated misfits and, sure, if it was just one or two 'characters' like Richard Doty I'd be right alongside you. But that just isn't the case anymore. To discount any of these guys you basically have to discount the whole thing because they are all very messily entangled and if one gets busted the whole ship sinks rapidly. Even Obama parroted this 'we don't know what they are' line.

I've said this for some time: that the Wilson document will make or break this entire modern disclosure wave. Today it looks like we may not even need it.

Woah, now you put it like that I've realised it's all bollocks after all

I haven't been disingenuous at all, it's not my style and even if it were, the topic isn't important enough anyway. It's a benign topic. My point is simply that officials making arcane claims re ufos is nothing new and Grusch is no exception really, except he's conducting an official complaint.


Zondo was already covered and I stand by my comment on him being an unreliable source.

Reid and many other officials, politicians and presidents have also been covered and it's only ludicrous to you and other proponents of the ETH. Again their potential motives were also covered/discussed itt. I'm not rehashing, sorry.

What you mean this?
That doesn't really say anything concrete and I wouldn't call it recanting per se.
Then there's this:
Hmmmm.
The ufo vids were also thoroughly covered itt btw.

Okay. As I said, everything you've said has been covered and I reiterate that for me, this is nothing that hasn't been done before always with nothing to show for it. Unless Grusch has something to knock our socks off, then again I don't regard his claims as significant news.

But there isn't any. Not at present and indeed the Pentagon denies Grusch's claims just as they denied Elizondo worked at the capacity he claimed.
So currently, yeah I'd call it bollocks.

mate, i'm not reading a 72 page thread to viddy the same old shite. You don't believe them - it's fine.


I would say this to the skeptics though, as a genuine piece of advice I'd wish I'd heeded sooner:

Try and lock in, right now, what it is exactly that would constitute reasonable evidence to convince only yourself that this is somehow real. What would be that piece of evidence look like, or have to actually be, before you flip your lid and join the tin foil brigade?

I think that's an interesting exercise. And the answers aren't as obvious as they might first appear.

Is a non-grainy video too much to ask for or possibly some reporting from people who aren't billionaires?

More Lizard People in the mix would be ideal as well. They get overlooked way too much.

What exactly do you think the billionaires pushing all this are?

Sure, but what variety. Are they "Land of the Lost" style or "V" style or some other brand. Kind of helps if I know what I am dealing with!

I just want to know who's profiting off this BS and how.

irony is global defence budgets would be more easily inflated adopting the usual DEMOCRACY v EVIL FASCISTS stance and confect some minor regional conflict into WW3. It can't be that difficult in the modern climate. isn't that basically what's happening??
Why swim off course and go the global threat narrative? we already have terrorists, viruses, global warming, comets, psychopaths and diabetes to contend with. you don't need to invent another outside threat to humanity

I'm real open-minded. The governnent first started UFO investigations in the late 40s, early 50s. Blue Book was the first major one. It's public record and the freedom of information act has released other such documents.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Blue_Book

Why have they continued these sort of programs in face of the fact of lack of any evidence 70 years later? I mean Blue Book debunked the whole phenomenon. Why do they still investigate nothing? NASA is working with other agencies now. it's getting stepped up.

https://www.youtube.com/live/L3pbTRxk89Y?feature=share