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06-26-2023 , 12:00 AM

#5226

chillrob

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Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 22,768

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunyain

I obviously dont know all the nuts and bolts, but from a 40,000 foot view I can see the very predictable dysfunctional outcomes from recent "criminal justice reform." I could be wrong, but my gut is that we wouldn't have to scrap the whole system to fix these problems. I suspect that if politicians and/or lawyers were more motivated to fix the problems, they would be much more resourceful in finding a way.

I have held for a long time that if we got rid of private schooling completely, and elites were forced to send their kids to public schools (including busing the kids of elites into inner city schools), A LOT of societal dysfunction would be fixed in very short order.

Hey, you said something I agree with! Private schools, religious schools, and home schools should not be allowed. Everyone should be entitled to the same education.

I also believe that to ensure that, all schools would have to be funded and regulated by the federal government, not state or local governments.

Quote

06-26-2023 , 12:30 AM

#5227

PointlessWords

banned

Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 6,097

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

The government has laws against speeding. They also heavily regulate and tax tobacco and alcohol.

By the way, do you consider yourself a conservative or a liberal?

The laws are not effective at saving lives.

I’m a liberal. I think we should be able to trust our fed govt to take care of us and protect us and our rights

Quote

06-26-2023 , 12:33 AM

#5228

chillrob

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Quote:

Originally Posted by PointlessWords

The laws are not effective at saving lives.

I’m a liberal. I think we should be able to trust our fed govt to take care of us and protect us and our rights

But I thought you wanted fewer police officers. Maybe I misunderstood your position about that though.

Quote

06-26-2023 , 01:08 AM

#5229

PointlessWords

banned

Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 6,097

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

But I thought you wanted fewer police officers. Maybe I misunderstood your position about that though.

who would want more police when the current systems are tyranical, oppress citizens and further a genocide against african americans?

NOT ME

Quote

06-26-2023 , 02:51 AM

#5230

chillrob

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Quote:

Originally Posted by PointlessWords

who would want more police when the current systems are tyranical, oppress citizens and further a genocide against african americans?

NOT ME

So you're not a liberal on that issue?

Quote

06-26-2023 , 09:03 AM

#5231

wreckem713

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 1,655

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

How did you come to the conclusion that this would be more productive than the current system?

Quote

06-26-2023 , 12:09 PM

#5232

PointlessWords

banned

Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 6,097

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

So you're not a liberal on that issue?

I believe in liberal use of govt to protect peoples rights. the police are not protecting peoples rights. I am not a tyrannical liberal. I believe in the rule of law and respecting the constitution, and using liberal amounts of govt to get there.

the current police force is a genocidal white terrorist group that has not left the racist mindset of their previous police officers (the pre 1964 police).

Quote

06-26-2023 , 12:10 PM

#5233

PointlessWords

banned

Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 6,097

Quote:

Originally Posted by wreckem713

How did you come to the conclusion that this would be more productive than the current system?

chillrob makes things up and then likes to use his nonsense as arguing points.

I suggest ignoring him

Quote

06-26-2023 , 12:19 PM

#5234

microbet

Solar Powered

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 57,485

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

This is the opposite of what everyone else understands. It was liberals who were calling for defunding the police, and conservatives who want to boost law and order.

It's ok that you have some traditionally liberal and some traditionally conservative opinions, you don't need to claim a different position for everyone else.

Lol. What liberals called for defunding the police? The liberals have done nothing but call for more funding for the police. Are you just letting Hannity tell you what liberals are calling for? Do you just think everyone who doesn't like Trump/Republicans/The Right is a liberal?

Quote

06-26-2023 , 12:26 PM

#5235

caseIIclosed

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 1,183

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunyain

Rococo seems to be of the belief that it is the job of lawyer/judges to interpret the laws on the books in good faith, and as long as they do this, they bear no responsibility for the dysfunction their rulings attribute to. I attribute more agency to the law aspect of law and order, and believe as a group they deserve more responsibility and scrutiny for dysfunction.

Like I said, most progressive Democrat minded people would rather focus animus on the blue collar guy making $50K/yr than the highly educated, white collar guy making $200k+/yr, which makes sense because they are overwhelmingly members of the latter group, but not the former. And these are the people that control the narrative, so we get nationwide riots against police, and the lawyers and politicians (who are often lawyers themselves) creating the perverse incentive structures get no heat at all.

If the outcomes are bad then the legislature can write better laws. Judges and attorneys are correct in doing what you described.

Quote

06-26-2023 , 01:04 PM

#5236

Rococo

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Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

There definitely were people calling to defund the police. We can call them progressives, democratic socialists, or something else if we don't want to call them liberals, but they definitely existed.

I obviously agree that defunding the police was never the mainstream opinion of either major political party.

Quote

06-26-2023 , 01:05 PM

#5237

corpus vile

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Quote:

Originally Posted by PointlessWords

who would want more police when the current systems are tyranical, oppress citizens and further a genocide against african americans?

NOT ME

I love the smell of hyperbole in the morning...

Quote

06-26-2023 , 01:56 PM

#5238

PointlessWords

banned

Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 6,097

people were calling to lower police budgets. For some reason this was called defund the police and people thought it meant get rid of the police

the conservatives want to abolish the ATF tho, and that means completely get rid of it.

Quote

06-26-2023 , 01:58 PM

#5239

microbet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Rococo

Agreed. I don't think many people in the US who self-identify as liberal were calling for defunding the police. Standard liberal position is that more money needs to be spent on training and hiring college grads and such.

And of course, that is the policy of the Biden Admin (although there is very little control of the money and lots of the money for training (and a lot of the COVID money) was spent on military equipment for the police.

Quote

06-26-2023 , 02:09 PM

#5240

PointlessWords

banned

Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 6,097

Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

pretty much anyone with a brain thats not racist on the left is calling for less funding to go to the racist tyranically genocidal/homicidal and racist maniacs that are the police in this country.

if youre a liberal and you dont support BLM then I dont think the liberals want you tbh

a core tenant of BLM is not increasing funding to the terrorists, which is how we got to

"DEFUND THE POLICE"

please dont forget

all cops are bastards

Quote

06-26-2023 , 02:41 PM

#5241

wreckem713

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 1,655

Quote:

Originally Posted by PointlessWords

what about that cop that saved lil waynes life?

Quote

06-26-2023 , 02:46 PM

#5242

PointlessWords

banned

Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 6,097

bastards do good things from time to time

Quote

06-26-2023 , 03:29 PM

#5243

corpus vile

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Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 6,944

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rococo

According to John Oliver defund the police simply means allocating resources into other areas of the police, depending on the neighbourhood. Not saying I buy into this but that's his take on it anyway.

Quote

06-26-2023 , 03:56 PM

#5244

chillrob

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Quote:

Originally Posted by PointlessWords

chillrob makes things up and then likes to use his nonsense as arguing points.

I suggest ignoring him

Lol, I was just agreeing with Dunyain.

Quote

06-26-2023 , 04:00 PM

#5245

chillrob

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Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

WTF? I have said many times I don't watch any right wing media, and I hate Trump.

I live in Portland, OR. This is a very liberal city, and there were tons of marches and rallies calling for defunding the police. There are still signs all over the place calling for it. Maybe you would call those people something other than liberals? I generally call them liberals, and I think that is what the majority of them would call themselves. If not, they are still to the left on the liberal <-> conservative axis.

Where have you seen liberals call for more funding of the police? Seen any marches calling for more police in your city?

Quote

06-26-2023 , 04:01 PM

#5246

chillrob

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Quote:

Originally Posted by wreckem713

How did you come to the conclusion that this would be more productive than the current system?

I guess it depends on what you mean by "productive" whether I think it would be or not, but productivity has nothing to do with my argument, which was about fairness.

Quote

06-26-2023 , 04:04 PM

#5247

wreckem713

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 1,655

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

I guess it depends on what you mean by "productive" whether I think it would be or not, but productivity has nothing to do with my argument, which was about fairness.

so everyone would be worse off but it would be fair?

Quote

06-26-2023 , 04:05 PM

#5248

chillrob

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Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

Just like as with PW and Victor, mocking others for making comments using widely held standard definitions of liberal and conservative adds nothing to the discussion.
If you were the one who set the definition, you would not call those people "liberals". We get it, but those are the standard definitions used in the US. And then you decide that anyone who uses the standard definitions does it only because of right wing media? If that isn't bad faith arguing, then you just need to get a clue and start using standard definitions if you want to participate in the discussion.

Quote

06-26-2023 , 04:07 PM

#5249

chillrob

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Quote:

Originally Posted by wreckem713

so everyone would be worse off but it would be fair?

Why are you putting words into my mouth when I explained by position thoroughly?

I'm sure some people would be better off and some would be worse off. I don't know what the overall effect on education would be, and neither do you.