Right, that's why more of them are vaccinated. How does that make the statistic super interesting? Were you expecting more liars?

It doesn't have to be a lie.

OK. Care to elaborate?

If someone dies, say suddenly from a heart attack or embolism, then one could speculate that maybe the vaccine had something to do with it but it's certainly not going to be an open and shut case there. Someone who is predisposed to blame the vaccine might do so but someone who is supportive of them I would think would be more likely to look for alternative explanations.

I cannot speak to the accuracy of this or not.

And i am not a Fauci fan (not a hater either). I called them out when they took the position that people should not get masks at the very beginnings of the pandemic. I realize though that Trump and his Admin fearing an economic downturn put immense pressure on them and were pushing the 'for every X dollars the Dow drops more people die' type info at him and CDC. But it was not the mask guidance i am critical of but how he DID lie after saying they were trying to keep the masks for first responders and prevent them all being bought up.

That is factually inaccurate. They did nothing to secure any of the masks in the US (charities were buying them up and sending them to CHina on D.O.D planes) and i was buying for my family on Amazon, so he should have told the truth that they just F-Up and were wrong on that one.

Yes

No. This is a right wing talking point spin.

His actual point was that he was only the voice for the science as it was evolving. The spokesperson. So when people were arguing with the things he was telling them (like Rand Paul) they were not arguing with him (these were not his views) and they were arguing with the science findings or assumptions at that point in time.

ban any discussion and label anyone who even mentions it an anti-vaxxer who is literally killing people. also ban those people. and then whine about them for years.

Interestingly. Just eyeballing the death graph for 18-29 year olds it looks like on average ~1 of every 2 million unvaccinated died directly from Covid, as opposed to ~1 of every 5 million vaccinated (I am just eyeballing, this could be off, but directionally it is right). This obviously puts things much more in perspective than just saying 2X or 5X death rate among unvaccinated. Also, I am guessing most of the cardilologists Luckbox follows would argue the vaccine induced death rate is much higher than this in this age group.

It is also interesting how the cutoff for data is 18 years old. Given we know children are less likely to die from the virus than 18-29 year olds, what is their death incidence from Covid if unvaccinated. 1 in 50 million? Again, I am sure vaccine skeptic cardiologists would argue the vaccine risk is much higher than this.

I will say the takeaway from this is that for older cohorts, especially people 80+ getting vaccinated is most likely +EV, unless the vaccine itself turns out to be VERY dangerous long term.

But for younger cohorts you would have to be very certain the vaccine (and repeated boosters) is perfectly safe to justify taking it, and there is certainly no long term data to emphatically prove this to be the case. So it is basically taking a leap of faith in "The Science" telling you something is true they cant possibly know is true, and ignoring all the critics who claim to have data emphatically showing it not to be true, even in the short term.

Kudos to the CDC for showing this data, but from a risk/reward profile it does not really support the case for anyone but the elderly to be getting vaccinated with the current Covid risk profile (which obviously could possibly change for the worse at any time as Covid is still rapidly evolving).

Ah OK, I was (probably naively) just thinking about deaths for which vaccine was officially attributed as a cause or contributing factor, but of course you're right that many of these answers will be based on guesses or speculation. I still don't find the result to be all that surprising given that I think there is an amplification effect based on who we surround ourselves with. For example, a very high % of people I know are vaccinated, and those who aren't I've seen and heard little from since this started, for a variety of reasons (NOT because I've cut them out of my life or social circles). I suspect I'm not the only one for whom that is the case, and also that those who are unvaccinated find themselves in regular contact with a much lower % of vaccinated people than are in the general population.

But now I get why you find it interesting; thanks for the clarification.

Part of it also is that through the pandemic Democrats have consistently polled that they felt Covid itself was more dangerous than Republicans, magnitudes more dangerous. And they were WAY OFF. It is actually insane how far off they have consistently been. I remember in giving some statement about how dangerous Covid was to children, Sotomayer threw out some numbers that were magnitudes incorrect (to the greater side) that got some run on right wing Twitter, to show how deluded Democrat were on this issue.

Republican estimates of Covid's danger is actually much more accurate, at least for the non-elder.y. But I would guess that this is just luck. They decided it wasn't that dangerous for political/ideological reasons, and for everyone but the very elderly, they turned out to be right, as far as we know.

So despite acknowledging the vaccine has some inherent dangers The Science has not been forthcoming about, Democrats also perceive the benefits do far outweigh the costs.

I'm curious for proof because I suspect there is some revisionism going on. If these claims were made early on and then didn't manifest because of vaccination that doesn't seem fair.

Any actual dangers shown by vaccines have been proven through science so I don't really get this.

I mean it took 10 seconds of googling to find exactly what I was referring to. But here you go, I guess.

“We have over 100,000 children, which we’ve never had before, in serious condition, and many on ventilators," was a literal quote she said making some kind of argument supporting Covid restrictions.

--When she said this there was less than 5,000 people under 18 in the whole country in the hospital WITH Covid, much less because of Covid, much less in serious condition.

--And there was countless polls done in the last 2 years, many before vaccines were even rolled out, which showed Democrats consistency over-estimated the dangers of Covid, often by magnitudes. Obviously this didn't get a lot of run in the corporate MSM, but it did in alternative media.

Thanks for that. It is indeed very wrong, but good thing she's not in anyway a medical authority. I can't imagine that statement had much effect on anyone's behavior. I am one of these people that has paid close attention to COVID and what medical authorities were saying and I never heard this. Even if I had, again, why would you listen to what a judge has to say about medicine?

Regarding the polls of Democrats pre-vaccine, that is what I meant by revisionist. It depends on how wildly off people were but vaccines have certainly mitigated the worst outcomes that were predicted back then and not a lot was known about the true risks in the beginning. Of course, on the other side, the right-wing talking point of, "it's just a flu" was wrong then and is still wrong so I'm not sure what you mean by the right landing on the truth, even if by accident. Republicans, who underestimated the seriousness of COVID, make up the most deaths in the country.

What information are you basing this statement on? Comparisons of countries that used mRNA vaccines versus those that didn't dont support this statement.

What are the numbers from some of the poorer places in the world like Africa?

My understanding is that they've faired quite well

Source?

You can just look at the rate of deaths among those vaccinated and not in the US.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tra...vaccine-status

Many of the countries with low vaccination also have terrible tracking and reporting abilities so it's hard to make comparisons. On the other hand, you had countries like India and Egypt, which had big jumps in excess mortality and poor vaccination rates.

Should the CDC be considered a trustworthy source? I put them on the same level as infowars. How about academic sources?

According to Worldometer, the United states is #16 in deaths/million.

India is #145 and Egypt is #156.

Of course, some of that can be attributed to the age distribution being older in the United States. But regardless, this data does not support your argument widespread adoption of mRNA vaccines resulted in a dramatic positive health benefit for the US relative to those countries.

And this is just health outcome that can be directly linked to Covid. Looking at overall mortality/health figures there certainly is no argument I can see mRNA vaccines were a great boon to the countries that adopted them.

Ironically, I would surmise the strongest theoretical argument for the benefit of mRNA vaccines is they may have pushed the selection of less dangerous variants. But this is purely hypothetical and not something The Science can even entertain, as it runs counter to their narrative the vaccines didn't cause the selection of variants.

You basically just ignored my point about comparing comparable groups.

I used the examples you gave. You weren't using Egypt and India as examples to support your argument?

Where do you think these countries rank in accuracy of reporting?

Where does the US rank there?

You do, I don't and I don't think it's reasonable to do so. You can look at the methodology in that link. 23 jurisdictions contribute data. It would be quite a conspiracy if everyone involved in that was falsifying data.

UK data tells the same story:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...nstatusengland

This.

My point was you can't compare them because of the disparity in reporting. When you do make a comparison of excess mortality estimates, those countries like India and Egypt did very poorly. Comparing populations within the US that were vaccinated and those that weren't, the unvaccinated were worse off.

This is "super interesting" to you?

Isn't there a pretty big disparity in what has constituted a "covid death", e.g. dying with covid as opposed to dying from covid?