So he did his own research into the Proud Boys, showed his work, and came to the determination he doesn't think they are fascist, white supremacists.

Going from there to "JV supports fascism and white supremacy" and by association this site supports fascism and white supremacy by letting him post his thoughts seems like a pretty big, unsubstatinated leap.

Show me evidence of antifa hurting anyone except racists and fascists. And no I'm not interested in the debate over whether or not the Proud Boys are just a misunderstood glee club.

If this forum had a like button, I'd like this post.

The quoting on this forum also feels quite clunky. You guys can't even select text and click quote to have it quote that selection... That's gotta be annoying.

I was thinking of the Sartre quote, but the maybe-Rove thing is basically an update.

They marched while chanting "Jews will not replace us". They organized a rally, invited every form of nazi militia that would come, then willingly marched and fought along side them. They instigate violence everywhere they go.

Well, it turns out that the Proud Boys, Patriot Prayer, et al. are undeniably fascist white supremacists who incite violence. So, if juan is lying to say they are not, then he's defending them.

That is pretty much a checklist of Fly's MO from what I can tell. So that playbook certainly doesn't seem to be constrained specifically to right wing trolls.

Well anyone who comes to that conclusion would be an idiot.

They're a fascist, white supremacist group. He support them. This site lets him post that stuff, and it doesn't get much/any pushback.

Seems pretty substantiated.

Why are you going so hard in the paint to defend people who support these abhorrent groups?

The Rove thing perfectly describes the bad-faith debate that's become quite popular on this new forum.

Who brought up the proud boys first? The proud boys discussion is, and always has been a deflection away from bad **** antfia did. JV made the mistake of getting sucked into discussion about proud boys, and allowing the deflection/derail. It was entirely brought on by your team.

Here I'll show you:


and JV's response:

The "bad **** antifa did" is defend themselves from Proud Boys who started a fight with them. You fell for deceptively edited video that cut out the part where the Proud Boys started the fight.

So the proud boys actually marched while chanting, "Jews will not replace us?" I was not aware of this. If this is true, this is actual evidence to support the claims being made.

FWIW, I just google searched "Proud Boys Jews Will Not Replace Us" and nothing came up. Can you cite where this happened.

LOL you can't possible be this ignorant.

And this is obviously a lie. I welcome anyone else to Google that and see what happens.

Fly posts actual arguments all the time. He just gets fed up, as a lot of us do, with having to make the same unanswered argument 1000 times in the interest of "vigorous debate".

Try to imagine being black and having to wake up every single day to debate your existence as a first-class human being all over again. That's what the "race realists" on this forum and elsewhere want. They don't want to win, just disconcert and brow-beat and remind non-whites of their lack of power. And still you get Rogan hosting Gavin McInness in the interests of "objective truth" and "let the people decide for themselves". **** that. We settled the debate on racism a long time ago. It's abhorrent to keep bringing it around.

It's much the same with a lot of these arguments. The point is not to win the debate but to spread propaganda and the appearance of a real debate. Hence bringing up the same tired tropes over and over and over - after disappearing when the same argument went against you the last time around.

The proud boys are awful and I have no particular objection to characterizing them as a fascist white nationalist group. I have disallowed explicit links to youtubes/tweets from Gavin McInnes in this thread on the grounds that he is a white nationalist troll, for example.

But I think you are getting your fascist white nationalist groups confused, assuming you are referring to the Unite the Right rally.

On another subject: I will probably allow this current derail to go on for a bit since I'm imagining it will spill over somewhere else if I lock this thread. But I will lock this thread pretty soon if it seems like it's going nowhere useful. At the moment, that seems likely.

JV shows his work. He definitely has his biases, but if you actually read his posts and links I think coming to a conclusion that he supports white supremacy and fascism is entirely unfounded. If anything, the most you could argue is that he doesn't recognize white supremacy and fascism when he should and is a useful idiot (and you could probably make the same claim about me).

The Proud Boys were at Unite the Right.

Their founder stated: "100% of us are Western chauvinists which simply means we all believe the West is the Best.”

I did, and it came up with vox, huffpost, and SPLC stuff. You know, the eptiome of lack of authenticity when it comes to describing hate.

Yes, the people who showed up in organized groups to organized rallies dressed like ninjas are 'just defending themselves.'

Both of these groups are looking for confrontation and both groups are violent and look completely ******ed. Same goes for anyone defending the actions of either group. This is not complicated. In before said ******s start yelling about Nazis and fascists!

A large group of Proud Boys attended the Unite the Right rally.

I have received death threats directly to my face before. Given JV's posting history of blatant dishonesty, I do not trust him. Given Well Named's blatant disregard for infracting and banning clear violations of forum rules and imo enabling them by simply deleting posts that deserve punishment, I do not trust the moderation here.

Maybe JV is telling the truth, but I don't have reason to believe him because he's made enough posts that are flat out false and also misleading. On top of that, his rant filled posts are laden with insults and disrespectful condescension...Clear anger, no matter how he wants to portray whatever it is that happened between him and Wookie

It should be no surprise to anyone that his latest post contains no direct condescension and "low T" jabs at anyone and now he thinks he needs to "clear the air". That last post sounds like someone doing damage control and trying not to get banned or open himself up to a lawsuit if he really is looking to dox people. You don't get to waltz around and act like others are pathetic and miniscule and then also act like you have a right to lash out because some others are ridiculing you bro, that's bullshit and you know it. Projection is not an excuse for the implication of crossing lines from 2+2 to real life, as has happened in the past. This is not OK and the reds really should make a statement on this because as I said I don't trust this guy and the mods are far too non committal for my comfort. **** that.

I think I'm done posting in politics...I have a great appreciation for posters like BoredSocial, John21, Howard Treesong, Original Position, and some others, but Luckbox, Kelhus, itshot, bahbah, JV, just ruin every thread I can't tell if they legit want to debate stuff or if they just thrive on wasting everyone's time and project and take pride in being so remarkably obtuse about almost every thread they partake in. This place sucks now. I can't recommend this forum anymore and the alt right **** that gets posted and effectively preserved and perpetuated on here moves me to actually want to protest the site as a whole. 2+2, it can be argued, is a haven for some seriously ****ed up posting, some of which is like some of that 8chan ****. You people should be ashamed of yourselves. Imma stay lurkin for a minute, but I don't feel safe posting here anymore. I'll let you guys wallow in your own swine.

I did not fall for ****. See, you can defend antifa all you want, they are bad, and have done bad ****. You can talk about proud boys all you want, they are bad, and have done bad ****.

The only reason we are talking about "proud boys" is becasue you and your buddies can't admit antifa is bad. Which is cool, you might think they are rightous....but the more you defend them, the more you look like hypocrites to the more moderate folks, especially when you talk about the proud boys.

You couldn't possibly be more wrong. There is exactly one person taking Juan's side of the argument in this thread (Juan). He's been pretty heavily moderated and faced literally hundreds of posts of pushback from many people.

I usually try to ignore comments about what happens here from people who don't actually read the forum, because it's clear that if you don't require any actual knowledge to have an opinion then my supplying you with information will probably not cure that problem. But to give you some idea, I advertised a survey about political ideology for posters/readers of this forum. It got 50 responses. The results are a pretty accurate reflection of the posting here. It is not and has never been the case that voices like Juan's go unchallenged in this forum, not in terms of posting and certainly not in terms of moderation, which Juan will attest to.

The first link is the Unite the Right wiki article. And within it this is what is said:

"Gavin McInnes, the leader of the self-described "Western chauvinist" Proud Boys was invited to attend but declined because of an unwillingness "to be associated with explicit neo-Nazis"

--I would actually appreciate you reconciling this with Suzzer's claim the Proud Boys marched chanting "Jews will not replace us" and the claim that I am lying saying I couldn't come up with anything to support this statement.

They forget, they are the ones who drew the equivalence to begin with, and pretend it was JV.