Please let me know if i can obtain the same amount of Fpp of each hand in zoom tables as i do in normal games, thanks!

IF so , then grinder must play zoom tables!

I am surprised no math genius here took this challenge. Poker, by definition, is a game in which you end your session at some point, so that is influencing any player, not only MSS-ers(although MSS-ers are more affected then others).

I apologize if I make any mistake and my conclusion is off. I thought long about this and said "How can I pay more then 1.5BB/6 hands when it is obviously that each SH hand gets exactly 1.5BB". Then I realized that if I would be dealt in MP 5% less then I should (for example) then I could pay more than 1.5BB/6 hands and I would not even notice(because the games are going that fast). Then I just looked over a friends MSS database(only 15k hands at the moment) and noticed that he is dealt exactly 10% less then he should in UTG. And then I noticed your post and I started thinking:

According to the your described algorithm, on a session of 1 table of n hands the following happens:

Zoom
1. A player plays 1.5BB(initial 3 hands)
2. For the rest of the hands, a player pays on average 1.5BB per x hands on a x handed game, since the position is randomized. This means that he pays an average of 1.5/x BB per hand.
Lets call this 1.5/x value P from now on. (1)

Total amount payed by a player is during 1 session of n hands of 1 tabling a x handed game is:
1.5BB(the first 3 hands) + P*(n-3) (the rest n-3 hands)
= 1.5 + P*n - 3P
= n*P + 1.5 - 3P = Lets note this as PZoom
(2)

Normal Games
On a full x handed table, a player pays 1.5BB per x Hands. This makes him pay an average of 1.5/x BB per hand. Which makes him pay a total of
n*1.5/x BB
= n*P by using P (as defined in relation (1) )
(lets call this PNormal)

(3)
for a session of n hands at a x handed full table.


Comparison Zoom vs Normal Tables

If we make ExtraZoom = PZoom/PNormal - 1 we are going to obtain the percentage which we pay extra for the same session of n hands played at 1 table in a x handed game. This is going to be expressed using n and x as parameters:

ExtraZoom = (n*P + 1.5 - 3P) / (n* P) - 1
Extra zoom = 1 + (1.5 - 3P)/(n*P) - 1
Extra zoom = (1.5 - 3P)/(n*P)
(4)

I think it is obvious that we DO pay something extra just for playing zoom. Now let's try to find out exactly how much we play extra for playing zoom.

Concrete results
Please remember when you are computing your own number of sessions that a session is zoom is considered from when you join a table until you stand up.
If you are playing 2 sessions of 4 tabling per day without rejoining tables, that means 8 zoom sessions per day.
If you are rejoining tables... that's much more difficult to compute as it depends of your rejoining rules, but in principle the number of hands(n) per session is way smaller and the number of sessions is way bigger then you would expect(especially for MSS-ers).

For SH
x is 6 => P=1.5/6 = 0.25
ExtraZoomSH = (1.5 - 3P)/(n*P)
ExtraZoomSH = 0.75/(n*0.25)
Best case scenario(long standing regs): If you play sessions which on average are 500 hands, you are paying in the blinds only ~0.6% extra. Please don't tell me you play 1600 hands per hour while 4 tabling, I already explained this is actually 4 sessions of 400 hands each(unless you rejoin, in which case is more sessions of less hands each).
Average case scenario: Let's say a player plays on average 10 zoom orbits in a session(regs are cool, but MSS'ers and most fish will bring this average maybe to a much lower value then you might expect). Then you are paying on blinds an average of 5% extra compared with you playing the same on a normal table.
Worst case scenario: MSS-ers and worst fish are probably playing an average of about 6 orbits per session, which makes them pay an extra of about 10% more money in the blinds compared with what they were playing on normal tables.
Insane scenario: If everybody would just join a a zoom table and press sit out next BB imediatelly, they would pay 37.5% more in the blinds then they would if they would do the same at a normal table

For FR
x is 9 => P=1.5/9 = 0.1(6)
ExtraZoomFR = (1.5 - 0.5)/(n*0.1(6))
ExtraZoomSH = 1/(n*0.1(6))
Same as SH by number of hands:
1. 500h/session: about 0.12% more
2. 12 orbits: about 5% more
3. 6 orbits: 11% more
4. Insane 1 orbit: 50% more

Conclusions
Amounts which we put extra in game in the blinds are huge. Just look at the amount you currently put in the blinds and think that about 3-5% of it you would not normally post. In compensation you get few more hands in BU than you should but that does not make up for the difference. And if you are wondering who the **** won that money, don't forget why rake is there.

Is this a ripoff by Stars? Tbh, I don't know. They are not taking money directly out of our pockets, just make us put more money on the table, which indirectly benefits them(rake).

But I do not find fair that I have to post extra blinds just because I am playing a fast format. I also do not find fair that I had to find it out by myself!

As about the shorties, this is even more unfair for them as Stars promised not to thread different categories of players differently, and they are just doing that now.

As about the fish, they play shorter sessions so they have to put more money in. They play more in the blinds(where they are anyway terrible) which makes them go broke faster. They are not even wrong when they troll about the blinds assignment being unfair.

But if these are the rules for everyone, I don't see anything else to do than to play by them(as long as zoom is playable, obviously).

Disclaimer

TBH, I do not think that the algorihm is the one described by our fellow. I think Stars tries to keep the order of positions so they initialy put a 100% probability of beeing dealt in BB, then 60% SB - 20% BU - - - 1% UTG then when you get into a position that is reset to 0(or maybe the last 3 positions are reset to 0) and the other probabilities are sorted from right to left(starting with the position you are currently in).

You can check this in your DB by noticing(over significant samples) that EM<MP<CO<BU<SB<BB and please you that play FR replace the positions with all the 9 full ring positions(there is a special report in HEM2 for FR positions).

If I am right, the computation is much more difficult but the result stays: we are paying more blinds then we should. There is only one solution that I can think of: don't deal us in the blind but instead use a counter of the positions we occupied until now to assign probabilities for positions. Sort the counter from highest to lowest, use a 0% probability for the highest and then use the differences from the highest to the lowest to compute the rest of the probabilities(bigger the difference, higher the probability).

The rake in zoom seems to be insane...I played 2,268 hands at 5nl and paid $50 in rake! I played almost 10,000 at 5nl in normal tables and I have only paid $44 in rake there.

As much as I love playing it, I don't think I can make zoom profitable with the rake structure like this.

The rake structure is the same

hmm, I dunno why it's saying that I paid 50 in rake then...I'm using pt3 on the free trial as hm1 isn't working for it yet. I swear it's saying 50 in rake though...I dunno why.

Batman, so if you claim stars is charging extra rake, that must mean some tables have more than 2 people posting blinds?

Think about it, every 6m hand has 1.5bb and 4 people not paying blinds. It's not very difficult to understand

Cliffs: Everyone is in the blinds more often...? Yeah... no.

If people who play short sessions are paying more than 1.5bb every six hands in blinds, people who play longer sessions will logically pay less than 1.5bb every six hands in blinds.

If that's fair or not is a different question.

Apparently it is you who don't understand the point he is trying to make, please read his post again. It's not about extra blinds, he claims that the seat distribution for a rat holing player isn't a uniform distribution.

One of the sickest and most ambitious levels i've seen on 2+2.

gratz batman22

Except that he's wrong, lol.

His mistakes is here:

'2. For the rest of the hands, a player pays on average 1.5BB per x hands on a x handed game, since the position is randomized.'

If people pay more than 1.5bb per x hands after joining a game because of the algorithm, for the rest of the hands they are paying less than 1.5bb per x hands because of other people joining the game. Kinda obvious....

I know ...hence me calling his post a level

Oh, my bad. I can't read I guess.

Kinda obvious, yet they never make up for the 1.5bb they pay in the first place. It's like always going until half of the distance to the destination: you will never reach it. More you go(more hands you play in one session) closer you will be to the destination(less you will loose from your initial 1.5bb).

Post your BB posted/hand.

I have lost my stats, but on the DB from the MSS friend it shows 0.174BB/hand. And the
EP+1 < EP+2 < MP < MP+1 < MP+2 < MP+3 < C0 < (min(BU, SB, BB))
stands true for every single one of the 3 days which he played, always with a difference proportional to the number of hands.

Now that would be cool if I leveled myself. I apologized in advance anyway and disclaimed the algorithm at the end(told you, I think they try to keep the order of positions).

PS. In case anyone wonders, the formula of #bbposted per hand is (#sbhands/2+#bbhands)/#totalofhands. If I see ONE single player here that has less than 0.25bb/hand on SH or less then 1.667 bb/hand in FR on a sample bigger than 10k hands(played in more then 20 table sessions) I'll eat my words.

edit: deam, if you don't post I'll start MSS-ing my self for 100k hands just to prove this true!

To go with the leveling 1 level down:

Maybe PokerStars does not write to the disk the hands in which you pressed the sit-out next bb and then you folded. Or maybe HM does not import them.

Are you writing your words down on a piece of paper and then literally eating the paper? That'd be fun to watch.

Along those lines, you could fold and close the PS client before the hand finishes playing. In this instance, is the client smart enough to grab the updated HH file the next time you log?

The key to Zoom is to win flips. That is all.

is there any official information about lauching NL200 / NL400 by pokerstras ?

Remove the timebank preflop please

higher limits...?? 100nl sux

F*ck me, a straight. What are the odds?

fk me..so many stats in that screenshot...do u really need that many numbers to win 100nl ? lol

If it turns out we are all paying the supposed number of bb per hand and if there is no error on PokerStars/HEM, then and only then, I would search a video with a guy that eats paper and present it to you .

#bbpostedperhand, please!