It's fun to me because I know he's never going to get any of it, but some people who are lurking or come upon the posts later will possibly gain something from it.

I see a rig in every hand I win Tho.

It must suck to go through life thinking everything is rigged.

On one hand, I guess it's kind of liberating. "Online poker is rigged, so I don't need to work on my game." "I don't vote, because elections are rigged." But I think that's by far outweighed by how such an attitude would hold you back in life.

I work on my game all the time. And do just fine. Come play.

Unnecessary period.

Sounds like a fair rig at least then.

Are you saying that no poker site in the history of online poker has ever rigged a poker hand ?
Really?
Are you also claiming no election in history has ever been rigged ?
Really?
You actually believe this?

Strange. It doesn't seem to me like his post says or claims either one of those two things.

No doubt some have been some. With that in mind, remember to vote again with this new gimmick account in the riggie poll, as the riggie side needs as many multi-voters as it can get.

All the best.

Are you saying that you have sex with farm animals? Are you really that sick?

If you got either of those things from my post, you have really, really poor reading comprehension.

One difference in poker and elections is that all the voters don't get to count the results too. At least in poker we can look at all the stats ourselves.

Ahh I'll bite, its been awhile.

I'd argue that it isn't possible to provide proof that it was rigged if it is done correctly. Hear me out...

Assumed site is rigging medium-high stakes cash games to skew top 1% winning players so that over next 1 million hands:

-AIPF overpair only holds up 78% of the time instead of 80%
-Flush draw only hits 34% of the time instead of 36%
etc
etc

The percentages are arbitrary so don't fight me on those.

This now enables a site to decrease said winning players profits from $200,000/yr to $40,000 year. Money now remains in play instead of winning players bank account and decreasing liquidity.

Are you telling me a programmer/coder or wtv can not rig the percentages to do this?

If done correctly you can show entire 1 million hand history to dissect and it will show nothing but said player running bad.

See, this is where it gets frustrating. Same old things, total lack of reading of replies to this same type of thing. Yes, they could do this. No, it could not be done to avoid detection as in your example. It takes way less than a million hands to get statistical variance to below 1%. I think it is around 100,000 or 150,000 hands to get it to around 1% and so on after.

Do some simple checks yourself on something like how often you are dealt AA or KK etc. For example in the last 87,939 hands I've had KK 396 times. So about 4 times less than the expected 400. AA I've had 403 times, so slightly above. QQ 401 times. And so on.

On those you may get some variance too given sample size, but the more you have the easier it should get. So again, yes they could, but not so easy as you think it is to get away with it. And a big risk versus reward to do it at all.

Nobody ever said that in this thread.

The point is that they can't do what you describe without it eventually being glaringly obvious. The hard part is rigging the deal and keeping it hidden. Here's a very short lesson in how statistics work using your example.

For an event that we expect to happen 80% of the time, let's say it only happens 78% of the time (your example).

After 400 tries, we expect 320 successes and get 312. This result has a Z-score of about 1.0, and we would expect this result or worse to happen to only about 1 in 6 players. Maybe they get away with it for this small sample.

But after 3000 tries, we expect 2400 successes and get 2340. This result has a Z-score of about 2.6, and we would expect this result or worse to happen to only about 1 in 244 players.

And after 5000 tries, we expect 4000 successes and get 3900. This result has a Z-score of about 3.4, and we would expect this result or worse to happen to only about 1 in 3100 players.

Finally, after 10,000 tries we expect 8000 successes and get 7800. This result has a Z-score of about 4.8, and we would expect it to happen to only about 1 in 1.4 million players.

So when it happens to a bunch of players, it quickly reaches a point where it can't be random, and the rig would be obvious to the world.

Try again.

Actually your reply is frustrating because it implies alot of falsehoods. For example :

On the subject of rigging, you are only approaching it from the standpoint of a hold em game and what 2 cards each player is being dealt. Rigging can be much more in depth , thus much harder to identify. The flops can be rigged , which ensure action hands post flop . This is almost impossible to prove because flops can be any 3 cards . Also , rigging can be applied to games like PLO 8 or better where the players are now being dealt 4 cards and it becomes almost impossible to identify any type of rigging that a poker site may engage in to create huge player action with several players chasing low and high hands , which result in max chop per pot or could result in several players constantly splitting their own money, so they are not losing a ton of money each hand and the chop is the only winner on a above average basis. This keeps the players from going bust in 1 big hand and prolongs the game ensuring the chop almost always sees bigger profits.

As far as your opinion that such rigging would be " noticed by the whole world" , that is also a falsehood. You act as though every player online, uses sophisticated poker tracking software when the reality is that most players online do not use such poker tools. Even the small percentage that do us such tracking tools and claim they have been cheated after reviewing 10s of thousands of hands played over a year or more ,are told they are idiots or wrong bad losers/ bad players, by people like yourself on poker chat forums.

To finish , anyone that admits that some poker sites have engaged in some type of rigging in the last several decades since the inception of online poker sites , would then have to answer the question of " do poker sites engage in rigging " , with a definitive yes !

Now if the question were " do all poker sites engage in rigging hands" , I think most of us would answer, no .

As one other poster pointed out, rigging can be done and has been done to benefit certain poker sites. By just changing the card structures to ensure a max 68% chop rate compared to a 62% chop rate, could mean millions of dollars more in revenues for a poker site and the players would have no real chance of proving this was being done . It isnt as simple as saying these sites dont do any rigging, because we can track how many times we got pocket pairs in hold em games, over the course of the longterm. These poker sites are not generally gonna make rigging so obvious, that they deal out pocket aces to certain players in a hold em game 4 % of the time instead of .02% of the time and deal out the losing opponent KK those same percentages to ensure they lock up with the AA player, and go broke consistently .

Sigh. Just because my example was ONE area in regard to hole cards dealt does not mean that is ALL you can look at. Your example of flops is just as known. You say it can't be proved. Of course it can. Seriously go and look up poker and probability on Google, because honestly I'm bored of trying to point out that just about every conceivable hand, flop, turn, river or card has a known probability.

So, yes we can check all the things you mentioned. And just because I only mentioned holdem is not relevant at all.
So, we should listen to people that don't use tracking software? Why? When it is impossible to spot a rig based on human memory, why would we give any credibility to idiots claiming rigs based on a total lack of significant data?

And I've not seen anyone that does use tracking software show a rig and be called an idiot. Seen it happen when the show stupid amount of sample size, or use the software poorly.

I am a poker player. Do you think if someone did show evidence I would not care? Do you think others here that play wouldn't care? Of course we would. But I'm not going to listen to fools that think they can spot a rig without a database, because it's impossible. Nor will I listen to those that try to show a rig with software they don't understand or use properly etc.

So let me ask you , it is your opinion that in the last 30-40 years of online poker, not one poker site has ever engaged in any type of online poker rigging ? Whether its players hand manipulations, flop hand manipulations or chop rigging to ensure a better chop percentage for the house ?

You really are trying to tell us, that in the last several decades, you are 100% positive that not one online poker site has engaged in such actions ?

If you make that claim, then your opinions on this subject, are absurd.

If you are open minded to admit that such rigging has probably taken place and possibly still does on some of the other shady poker sites, then even your answer to the question of " do poker sites rig ", has to be a yes !

The question isnt " do all poker sites engage in rigging " . The question is " have some poker sites engaged in various forms of rigging in the last several decades of online poker" . Anyone that says they are 100% positive that none of the poker sites over the last 30 years online, have engaged in rigging, is someone I do not trust on this subject.

I've never seen anyone here post a sample that isn't super small and be called an idiot and the number of riggies that provided evidence that even came close to sufficient is negligible. Even the people without trackers that have a suspicion of a certain aspect being rigged could just say "filter your databases for this, this and this" and let other people gather data for him. If multiple people run a quick filter and find numbers that don't add up you have a real case but no riggie will actually produce evidence.

So when a riggie does actually come up with a testable way to search for a rig and nothing is found, they don't stop. They refuse to believe actual data and that is the point where they are rightfully being called idiots and for multiple reasons.

1) they believe it is rigged contrary to evidence
2) they believe it is rigged but sometimes claim "we" are all in the conspiracy
3) they believe it is rigged BUT STILL KEEP ****ING PLAYING

Seriously they keep playing at a site they "know" is rigged and is cheating them. How much of a ****ing idiot are you then? Either the riggie doesn't actually believe his own idiotic claims (which would make them just trolls) or they are actual idiots.

Here is the simple question :

Who believes with 100% certainty that every online poker site since the inception of online poker began , never engaged in any type of rigging, card manipulations, chop manipulations ?

Almost nobody does. The poll question is "is online poker rigged" so even if there is one instance or multiple instances, that equates to such a small percentage of online poker.

If you answer yes to that equation then it's the same as saying yes to "are men gay?" or "are children murderers?" or something silly like that.

Even if there were evidence of a site rigging their cards that still is no evidence for other sites to be rigged. There have been claims of every kind of rig in this thread and none were actually proven.

Then that makes sense . The majority agrees that its very probable that some poker sites have engaged in rigging in the past or present but this does not mean that all poker sites engage in rigging. It just means that most of us agree it has been something that most likely has been done with some poker sites at certain times.

To take it a step further, most of us probably agree that large mainstream poker sites like Party Poker would be least likely to risk engaging in poker rigging tactics compared to poker sites like Lock or Full Flush that were involved in blatantly corrupt business tactics.

Whether it is very probable or not is actually hard to confirm because there haven't been any actual cases where the evidence has been provided. There have been confirmed superusers or cheaters but no actual adjusting of the RNG. With all the shady sites that there are/have been it is conceivable that one or more sites have at some point resorted to rigging the RNG so I wouldn't be surprised if it was the case. The thing is no evidence of this going on has been presented beyond a reasonable doubt.

Because of the above reasons it is very hard to claim that 100% of the sites are 100% not rigging and that is not really the issue that is being debated. I think the vast majority of riggies and non riggies admit that it is entirely possible for rigging to take place in online poker. The point they disagree on is whether it has actually been proven and that is where riggies tend to fail in providing the evidence.

To summarize, it's whether it actually happened that we're trying to find out, not whether it is possible. What me and others are trying to show is that it is quite easily testable and we all have the same common interest; safe and fair games online. If any convincing evidence is provided I will be the first to admit that there is a case of rigging.

No.

The default position appears to be that there has been no evidence of a rig presented so far, but that a reasonable person does not consider absence of evidence to be conclusive evidence of absence.

I do love that you like all riggies make claims, and then when told you are wrong you just ignore it and move on to something new to try to make your case.

Firstly, NOT ONE of us in this thread has made claims that there is no bad poker sites out there, or that some of them maybe rigging the game. Hell, some of these small operations appear and vanish in quick order and have been known to just steal the money let alone rig the game.

So you'll never see any of us say that we are 100% sure there is no site rigging the game. But we don't convict people of crimes on baseless accusations either. Why should we do so with poker sites? Screaming it is rigged, or must be rigged with zero evidence is just DUMB. That's like saying I must like killing people even though I've never been seen to so much as raise a harsh finger to a person.

Fact is that rigged claims come from players that lost hands, lost money or whatever and need to move the fact they lost away from their responsibility. This is common human nature. Hey, it can't be my fault, I know I'm awesome - so what is to blame if not me?

Simple fact is there has been no evidence ever of any site rigging the RNG. Not from data, or from current or past employees coming forward to say they know and can prove it. And like you said it has been a lot of years, and still not one person to prove it. That would make poker better at keeping secrets than any business or government in history.