Maybe you should read the rest of my post, moron.

Name calling, eh? Very mature. Must have "touched a nerve".

Well, if you drink beer it does benefit you but it's good to know you have no problem with people doing illegal and immoral things as long as you don't think it directly affects you. That does indeed make sense coming from you.

Btw I love the contradiction in this:
You just said its complicated, but its simple.

How about we skip the programming languages and you just tell me the algorithm (that is, the logical decision process) you would use to come up with such a simple model.

Explain how you would shuffle the deck each time to ensure that players got card combinations that, if one player made a stupid play, with the remaining cards that NOBODY saw (cause you can't very well pull out the king of spades again if the ep with k2o folded it) you could then reorder to put out something rewarding.

And remember, you can't NOT give out premium hands, and the distribution of hands each player receives must be legitimately balanced within statistical tolerances because YOU NEVER KNOW who's going to run a full analysis of their 10,000 hand history they've recorded and will spot an anomaly.

You don't have to write this out in programming terms. Just write it out in a series of "STart here with a shuffle arrangement like ____ ", "if thi shappens, do this, if that happens, do that"- explain how you'd do it manually - and how you'd adjust manually to various situations.

IF you can write up a strategy like that for some card shark to follow, that isn't obvious, then that can be converted to programming.

Does that sound "simple"?

Actually other rooms experimented with anon tables back in the ancient days, but odds are you never heard of them, and I doubt any have been in business for many years. Some rooms even limited the number of tables to a single one.

The general consensus about their changes was that they were trying to make the player mix more casual friendly, and that is not a new trend in the industry. Some networks segregated (and even kicked out) some of their skins that just brought in rakeback grinders. Others created programs and specific tables for new players. Pokerstars now has missions where people can get tickets to all-in bonus tournaments instead of frequent $100 reloads.

You seem to not be happy with what Bodog did, but it seems they have emerged as one of the top US facing sites as a result, so while their changes may not be ideal for grinders, it seems it was for their business, and of course they will make choices they believe benefit their business, whether or not it helps you specifically as a player.

That is just normal commerce, and the way you have a voice is expressing your opinions and concerns in the appropriate places, like the Bodog thread.

If you think their changes are all part of a sinister plot to do a tricky software rig against specific players that nobody can detect and nobody inside reveals, then this is the thread for you, and you can join other riggies who say things like


If you have legitimate concerns about Bodog's approach then you are doing a great disservice to yourself and other players on that room by posting your issues in this thread. The choice is yours in the end.

All the best.

I work for an automation company.

There are some bright people on here lets not start acting dense on purpose. It can be possible... we all understand that.

In case of Bodog/Bovada..... we can't capture data anymore. At least not as easily. However, they can gather data on you. It really wouldn't be hard for them to implement the same data mining software we used into their sequencing. I don't have to be a programmer to understand this. Am I claiming they are doing it? no I'm not. i'm just simply stating that it's possible.

They've openly admitted to having too many "sharps" on the site. They don't care as much about rake as regular casinos don't care about poker. Poker doesn't make them money it only serves as a gateway.

If they profile a new player/all players....For Example Sample player pool A - loves to splash around all over the casino and go on degen mode once college football and NFL starts. Play a lot of poker too, everyone does right? You're never playing directly against the house. Insert slightly modified sequencing based on player profile histories. Sample player pool A wins a few extra here and there collects some money from good winning players due to this where they would usually go broke.... now they're feeling all big and bad. Sports season starts they ship everything back to the house or donk it of playing other casino games.... now they're on degen mode and start redepositing into the site to chase. All this is 100% to the house including part of your money. This goes far beyond them collecting chump percentages on rake.

Once you deposit money into the site it's not your money. It's their money. They can tell you to go kick rocks and never give your money back. April 15th ring a bell from 2 years ago? That's still working itself out.

Net in and net money out is what they look at. That's what all casinos look at. They are openly allowed to profile good black jack players and sharp sports betters giving them different odds or not even letting them play at their establishment.

Thanks for sharing that. People tell stuff all the time.

If it was done then some of the people would tell. That is what people do. All the time, except apparently for programmers for online poker sites.

They do not care about poker, so it goes without saying they would not do anything on the poker side to risk the businesses they do really care about. Got it - poker is meaningless to them according to you.



You said they do not care about poker... Why would they do all of this, and take all of that risk, for something they do not care much about?


You said they do not care about poker...

Also, how do they control how players behave during a hand? I never quite understood how the programmers who can program all of this stuff (without any of them telling about it) account for players making independent choices. What if a dude in the player pool they want to help goes for a piss on a hand, how do the programmers expect that?

Anyway, since they do not care about poker all of this is moot.


Do research and pick better sites. Lots of companies fail in all industries.

Those games are played against the house. Poker is raked for the house regardless of who wins the hand. Not the same model.

Anyway, you said poker does not matter to them, so why would they spend a lot of time and money rigging something that does not matter to them. Certainly not worth the risk of being caught, so I guess you must be a shill for Bodog sent here to help with the massive conspiracy.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...4&postcount=29

Your game being up to date is certainly not an issue for you, since Black Friday was only a little over 3 years ago, which is nothing in this industry, thus it is not you, rather it is the potential rig holding you back.

All the best.

Lol... I ain't talking about Bodog bro, but no, I don't really trust them, but I haven't played enough there to have an opinion on their RNG...

I'm talking about a site that I played a lot on and I know for sure it's some BS.

And to that other guy... I ain't reading all that and I ain't providing you with any evidence... That's all you guys want is evidence, we'll there isn't any... Give me evidence that a main site ain't rigged... YOU CAN'T EITHER MCFLY... And don't bother posting some link to the results of millions of hands because they mean nothing... That is not evidence in this argument buddy... I'm done here by the way... This is a waste of time. You guys can't understand the awvious truth without hardcore evidence...

Some casinos, maybe, but not reputable poker sites. Your deposits are yours and the money only transfers to their use when raked. After the kiting that FullTilt did and got busted for, major US-facing sites will be pretty reluctant to comingle deposits and operating funds. The well-regulated ones like Stars have never done it (confirmed separated by our own DOJ). And the state-regulated ones now in the US are strictly forbidden from doing it.

So no, deposits are not revenue for the site, nor "their money". If the site you play on doesn't have such rules, find another one.

Dude you're trying way to hard..... calm down.

Clearly you're on here to try stir up an argument. You're seeking that attention..... great use the search feature. Way to go.

I never claimed I'm being rigged against. All I said is that it's possible.

Poker does not matter to them in terms of them making money. I clearly stated that they use poker as a "gateway". I love how you unintentionally overlooked that part. Must of been using the search feature too hard. Cool. Anyway.... simple example:

If Degen A and Degen B win 3000 dollars on Seahawks crushing the Broncos..... and winning Reg A, winning reg B, and mediocre reg C systematically crush these guys at the poker tables taking away 3000 now that's a problem for the site/casino. Obviously some of that 3K (a tiny portion goes back to the house in the form of rake) but most of it is net money lost to the winning regs going away from the house because they cash out on a weekly/monthly basis. In terms of making money you're completely right the rake goes to the house but that poker money is inserted into the mix of the overall money that Bovada uses since it's an actual online casino.

Everything i said about real life casinos is true. What makes you think an online casino who openly admitted it's profiling against "sharps" and winning regs might not operate in a similar fashion?

How do you know people would tell? How do you know what people are even in the know within the corporation? How do you know they don't contract 3rd party companies and make them sign a legal confidentiality claus as to what kind of programming and profiling systems they use? How do you know they don't hire other 3rd party companies willing to take money under the table to commission and sign off on said practices as totally legal and acceptable?

Why doesn't bovada split sports book money and poker money separately meaning you can't bet on sports with your poker winnings and vice versa?

any sites that you know of currently taking new York State residents?

I hate to jump on the bandwagon but I feel Bovada MIGHT NOT be 100% clean. I have no real proof but I have a gut feeling. The obvious is the lack of any identity at the table. There is no way of knowing if you are playing a person or a potential bot. I know I am just being paranoid but then again we have seen this in the past.

Also, I have read the posts that say someone smart notice the pattern and pick up on it. Who is to say that you do it on a small scale but to everyone if someone would/could notice?

For example, let's say I'm a cashier at a store. If I take $5 from your change you will probably notice it. If I take $5 from your change every time you will notice it. However, If I take 5 cents from every other customer but not to repeat that customer every time would they ever notice my theft?

Or say we agree I flip a coin 10,000 and each time we bet $100. We should assume the total should be about 5,000 heads and 5,000 tails. What if I had a system that I could manipulate the toss and made it 5,025 heads and 4,975 tails? Would anyone think that my system is rigged? No of course not 50.25% to 49.75% is reasonable. However, I would net $5,000. Doesn't seem like a lot but what if I had 100 hands flipping coins at 10,000 flips per hour? It adds up and no one would be suspicious.

I'm not saying this is going on but it's hard to say for certain it is NOT going on either.

(bong sound)

And what if I had software that tracked every coin flip so I could easily detect any such bias?

Well, obviously I'm going to ignore your results because you are clearly a fanboy of the Canadian Mint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0RwEEHv2kk

Yeah, eventually stuff like that gets discovered.

Good luck remembering which customers you took 5 cents from and which you did not, and definitely some would notice you made a mistake at best with the change, and those that do may not come back.

I know if I see a cashier not ring in the purchase, but charge me the full amount with tax, if I am in the mood I will ask for a receipt to annoy their plan to pocket the sales tax, and odds are I will not go back there.

Stores get caught doing this with credit card sales all the time (adding 5-10 cents). Employees get caught all the time with relatively simple investigative work as well. A common scam for wait staff is on all you can eat places to use the same bill for multiple customers that pay cash, and there are ways they get caught.

Crimes like this can work, though they are never impossible to catch, and unless your master plan is to steal 20-25 cents total, people do notice these thing. Most criminals are pretty dumb, and believe their plans are harder to trace than they actually are, which is why so many get caught.

All the best.

Your software wouldn't prove anything. Again I'm talking about moving percentages by fractions. What conclusion could you come up with if your 50/50 situation ended up 50.25 to 49.75?

I don't understand - your post started off with something that you felt that you could notice, but then started talking about something that wasn't possible to be noticed.

Changing something by 0.25% would be detectable in a sufficiently large sample.


For example, here's an analysis of 98million flops at full-ring:
http://www.spadebidder.com/flop-analysis/part7/

It shows that, apart from the flops with pairs, every pattern appeared within 0.001% (ie, one-thousandth of one percent).

If there was a bias of 0.25%, that would be a clear outlier.

This wikipedia article explains how you do this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checki...a_coin_is_fair

Some of the maths is beyond my memories from high-school maths - if you're seriously interested in learning more about the issue, I imagine that there are some online places to learn maths to a sufficient level to do this sort of analysis yourself.

ok ok I forgot everyone that plays online poker are also forensic detectives as well that would notice in their own little sample of playing a 1/10 or 2/10 of a percentage point difference in probability.

Riddle me this one then gurus of the internet. When the article analyses 98 million hands, does it also analyze how the probability differs if at all at the .25/.50 limits compared to 1/2 or 10/20? Does it analyze if a random player who plays on occasion stays true to the probabilities or if any certain players or types of players receive better/worse probabilities? Is there a difference in where a player is from? Theses are the questions that many wonder and there are no answers for them.

Going back to my simple example that was clearly disproven, let me expand on it. Let's say now I will flip a coin 1 million times with a number of random bettors and I will post the results of my coin flips. At the end my flips turned out to be 50/50 with the exception of a few heads/tails. Looks good right? Looks like I flipped fair and there was no funny business right? Well what if I had to give you the results of every coin toss per amount of wager and per bettor and the exact history of per flip? Even though I ended up 50/50 couldn't I manipulate each "random" flip but still hit my probabilities?

Fortunately computers and appropriate database software exist that do these calculations for you. Download a free trial of Holdem Manager to see for yourself.

Filters can be made by buy ins, Batman. You can also analyze specific players. If you want to do a location based study then you need to simply make a note where the player is from, and you can create your own filter to analyze people from whatever country you personally believe the rig is involved.



Again, computers exist to allow you to filter it however you like.

Visit the Holdem Manage forums and you will see people discussing analyses far more complex than you can imagine, and also remember that many people have purchased millions and millions of hands so that they could do detailed analyses on opponents.

All the stuff you think is impossible to test is trivially easy, not that that will alter your beliefs.

All the best.

Not everyone needs to be an expert in this stuff, but when there are credible examples, the community can band together to compile data together and investigate.

A good example is how the members of this forum contributed to proving that there was cheating on Absolute Poker, and then also Ultimate Bet.
Well, if this is important to you, then I'd encourage to review your own hands.

You have an idea of something that you suspect might be happening - so have a look at your own hands and see whether it is supported by your own data.


Obviously, if are looking to find a correlation between coin flips and amount wagered, you need both the results of the coin flips and the amounts wagered. It would obviously not be possible to determine if there's a correlation between coin flips and the amounts wagered if you didn't know the amounts wagered.

There is always a sample size that will detect it. 10K wouldn't be enough to prove it. But on 10 million flips, that result has a chance of about one in a trillion, i.e. virtually impossible to be random.

So I'd have to play 12-15 years in order to get a proper sample size?

Monteroy if you play on Bovada you would know players are not identified by anything but a seat number. Only Bovada themselves know who is who at the table so your suggestions go bye bye in the wind.

Josem I'm not sure what my hand history size would be but let's say it's 6,000 and out of those I see 2,000 flops and 1,000 rivers. That alone would not be enough to cry foul if I thought something was up. My response was to someone posting a link to a study of 98 million hands. I was pointing out that although that study may prove the probability in the end it does not eliminate the possibility of fraud to get there

Quite obvious he doesn't play poker.