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u see Estelle Denis? Says she has aces went all in and dealer folded hand

View Poll Results: Who is at fault in the hand where Estelle Denis' cards were mucked?

Estelle Denis

173 26.05%

The dealer

491 73.95%

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10-08-2009 , 03:17 PM

#76

Goodie

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 5,694

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Bando

It's partially her fault, partially his. Correct answer is it don't matter. If you cross the street and kind of pay attention and get pancaked, does it really matter who was at fault? No, you're still dead.

I think the family of the guy that got pancaked would beg to differ. It always matters who's at fault. Always.

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10-08-2009 , 03:43 PM

#77

KidsJH

grinder

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 418

I definitely think that the dealer was at most fault here, but when are people going to learn to protect their cards...

It amazes me of how many times this has happened (I guess in this case it was quite extreme), and people still don't protect their hands a lot of the times.

I see this on TV and when playing live... Just wondering when will people learn to avoid and not even give a chance for a spot like that to come up.

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10-08-2009 , 04:01 PM

#78

Pot Odds RAC

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 4,393

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasputin420

ROFL not at all little man, au contraire I am very mellow. Simply proud of the local talent.

Hint: google best pound for pound and read my location.

GSP Rules.

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10-08-2009 , 04:28 PM

#79

nurabsal

banned

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 851

Show me the rule of poker that says that you need to protect your hand in case a dealer isn't following the action properly.

Sure, protecting your hand is a good idea.
But.....

It's an idea. Not a rule. Players in badly organised games may want to protect to combat dealer and player mistakes, but this is the WSOP ffs.

If I ever have that dealer, I'm going to put my cards in a transparent briefcase, handcuff it to my wrist and give the key to the TD.

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10-08-2009 , 04:45 PM

#80

DoctorFarha

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 2,596

If you have to place the blame on one person it would be the dealer but its partly Denis' fault too

Quote

10-08-2009 , 04:48 PM

#81

Goodie

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 5,694

Quote:

Originally Posted by nurabsal

You are incredibly incorrect here. It is absolutely a rule that it's the players responsibility to project their own hand. How could you not know this?

This is the entire reason that the blame lie's with the player in this case, because it's the player's responsibility. Yes, the dealer should have seen the all in chip stack and yes he shouldn't have mucked her cards. And clearly he has some of the blame here but the lion's share goes to the player, hence the rule.

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10-08-2009 , 04:54 PM

#82

Nutcracker19

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 1,675

this tilts me.

obv dealers fault. player moves all in - players cards are pretty much behind her chips.

protecting your hand is a good idea. if you dont, there are rules that apply.

Quote:

74. If a dealer kills an unprotected hand, the player will have no redress and will not be entitled to his or her money back. An exception would be if a player raised and his or her raise had not been called yet, he or she would be entitled to receive his or her raise back.

and

Quote:

89. All chips put into the pot in turn stay in the pot. If a player has raised and his or her hand is killed before the raise is called, the player may be entitled to the raise back, but will forfeit the amount of the call. Any chips put into the pot out of turn fall under the action "may or may not be binding" Rule 90.

its simple enough... protect your hand. dealer still deserves a KITN imo.

edit: ppl say there is a rule 'players must protect their hand at all times.' please show me this rule or gtfo

Last edited by Nutcracker19; 10-08-2009 at 04:56 PM. Reason: added info.

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10-08-2009 , 05:09 PM

#83

Snipa

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 1,896

She shoved in, put her hands under the table to get ready to see what JC was going to do [just like when someone shoves and stands up]
Then the dealer sees her stack is almost in the MIDDLE of the table and dodges the chips lmfao..... wtf is that crap.
Then takes her card.

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10-08-2009 , 05:21 PM

#84

whodatninja

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,304

the dealer should at least be fired for his inability to keep up with a hand. sure she wasn't protecting her cards, but the dealer was clearly daydreaming and not following the action as is hopefully stated in his job description.

Quote

10-08-2009 , 05:32 PM

#85

nurabsal

banned

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 851

Your entire effing stack in front of your cards should be ample 'protection'

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10-08-2009 , 06:10 PM

#86

mikekelley

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2,192

Worst dealer ever

Are you kidding me? Protecting cards is one thing but this is just on a completely different level. He physically reached around her stack to grab her cards, and she was all in so had no chips to put on her cards.

Completely ridiculous, awful dealing. Sure she could have/should have had a protector, but no matter how you slice it, this is nothing short of THE F DO dealing.

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10-08-2009 , 06:14 PM

#87

BINGOBANGOFTP

adept

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 795

this sort of result probably hurts the poker economy a lot more than something like ultimate bet's cheating scandal

why would a new player think they have a fair shot to win a poker tournament if it has a bunch of rules that can result in you shoving all in, and the dealer mucking your cards, regardless of what you were doing after the shove? it just looks like a trick to the new player

particularly in a tourney like this, the casino should refund the buy-in to the player when the casino caused the hand to be be mucked

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10-08-2009 , 06:15 PM

#88

Brussels Sprout

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,814

Quote:

Originally Posted by Comtempo

NSFW

Wow at this

Also her accent is so thick she sounds a bit like a deaf person

Quote

10-08-2009 , 06:26 PM

#89

iplayscared

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 5,904

Quote:

Originally Posted by nurabsal

Your entire effing stack in front of your cards should be ample 'protection'

100%

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10-08-2009 , 07:12 PM

#90

rawt

newbie

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 36

Could you see the same outcome happening to a name pro in this scenario? Imagine Hellmuth in his all-in pose, face buried in his palms after a shove and the dealer proceeds to muck his cards. You can GUARANTEE the ensuing hissy-fit would result in a different outcome. Now THAT would have been awesome TV.

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10-08-2009 , 07:14 PM

#91

Jack Bando

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 7,587

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goodie

I think the family of the guy that got pancaked would beg to differ. It always matters who's at fault. Always.

What I meant by my analogy was no matter whose fault something is, if the damage can't be undone it doesn't help undo it to know guy A was at fault more then guy B.

If the dealer would have said at 3:10 of this clip "Oh no miss, I made a huge mistake and thought you had folded and put your cards in the middle of this pile even though you have all your chips a quarter foot in front of your cards. I screwed up and should go back to cooking fries at Mickey D's" she still has a dead hand.

Put a hand on your cards like JC Tran and it's all good. And if you don't got hands, use a foot.

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10-08-2009 , 07:17 PM

#92

Jack Bando

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 7,587

Quote:

Originally Posted by rawt

What would have been the new outcome? The cards are 100% mixed in with other cards. Even as bad as some people say WSOP staff is, I don't see them looking through the entire pile and pulling out a hand

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10-08-2009 , 07:19 PM

#93

BraveJayhawk

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 8,575

To everyone that is saying it's her fault, she should protect her hand, blah blah blah, I hope this happens to you sometime in the future. Clearly the dealer is at fault here. If this happened to me, he'd have a broken hand, my hand would have been retrievable, I would have gotten a penalty for talking some **** to the dealer and never would have tipped at WSOP ever again.

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10-08-2009 , 07:57 PM

#94

IIIII X X X IIIII

banned

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 209

Quote:

Originally Posted by BraveJayhawk

If this happened to me, he'd have a broken hand, my hand would have been retrievable, I would have gotten a penalty for talking some **** to the dealer and never would have tipped at WSOP ever again.

Come back to reality bud...

Quote

10-08-2009 , 08:01 PM

#95

domda

grinder

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 612

The title of the poll should be "who is most at fault the dealer or the player?" because they both are clearly wrong.She did not protect her cards and he was not paying sufficient attention.Unfortunate situation but ultimately I would say she is more responsible.However flaky a dealer is ,this would never happen to a top pro they would never leave their cards exposed like that.

Quote

10-08-2009 , 08:07 PM

#96

waldo027

veteran

Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 3,084

The dealer is more at fault than her, obviously. Not every live poker player reads 2p2 or has had their hand killed by a terrible dealer like this one. The vast majority of players trust the dealers to be competent and not **** up, which is wrong obviously. And lol at her whispering to the floor man that she had pocket aces and the floorman goes through the muck to find them, and can't find them. Sorry ma'am, your hand is dead.

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10-08-2009 , 08:08 PM

#97

ligastar

ToP 1o0 pAsS cAtChErS

Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 33,806

Quote:

Originally Posted by BraveJayhawk

To everyone that is saying it's her fault, she should protect her hand, blah blah blah, I hope this happens to you sometime in the future.

It won't happen to me b/c I protect my hand when playing live poker. If she didn't make an error the dealer's error would've never been possible.

Quote

10-08-2009 , 08:09 PM

#98

IIIII X X X IIIII

banned

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 209

Quote:

Originally Posted by waldo027

The dealer is more at fault than her, obviously.

Wrong, obviously.

Quote

10-08-2009 , 08:10 PM

#99

BartJ385

veteran

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 2,667

Can't vote, would have voted for:

o Tournament directors for failing to inform every player that card protectors are mandatory

Seriously. There are so many online players in that tourney who think card protectors are just lucky charms.

Quote

10-08-2009 , 08:16 PM

#100

BartJ385

veteran

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 2,667

Quote:

Originally Posted by waldo027

And lol at her whispering to the floor man that she had pocket aces and the floorman goes through the muck to find them, and can't find them. Sorry ma'am, your hand is dead.

lol indeed, how much can it cost to install overhead cameras at every table. There is a good chance that they could have determined without a doubt which cards she held, so that the hand could have continued.

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