I dont have their software - can someone check who plays on UB. Just wondering if there was an upgrade the same date that there was on Absolute Poker, my understanding was that the hole card reading could not be accomplished before this upgrade on Absolute, but again I could be wrong or it could be a moot point.

Standard risk management for most any corporation, unfortunately. They assess the damage of admitting without pressure vs the chance it never comes out, and the usually higher damage if it does. Just like Enron, the Catholic Church, the S & L scandal, etc, etc, etc.

Yeah, but they DID have a ton of upgrades during the summer into September. You can check the upgrade logs on the UB website. I remember logging on and being like "geez another upgrade?"

http://ultimatebet.com/support/software-updates

Things like "Just a quick update to make things run smoother and faster to boost your overall game experience" probably mean "hey! we're installing superuser capabilities come donate money, thanks!"

(Regarding potential UB software upgrade..)

This is a big part of my uncertainty, as I remember with the Absolute case there was a clearly identified, single update to the software, and then all of the abnormal play/cheating that followed. Maybe if it can be shown that this alleged UB cheater did not show on the radar until after some matching UB/Absolute upgrades on the same date?? And if the sites are linked, and superusers exist on both, and the cheating started right after the upgrades, thats pretty much a smoking gun for all. And of course, like in the Absolute case, it will not be limited to just one account.

Okay, I went back into my 2007 DB and found I had 127 hands on Nionio, here's his stats:



Unfortunately I cant get the HH from PT... for some reason it's all blank. I'm going to try and retrieve the HH.

All the hands I have with Nionio are from Aug 4, and Aug 12 07.

Here are his top winning hands... maybe one of you guys can browse the list and see if there's any hands that you dont have the history for already:

Oh, I didnt see the list if it was posted... but you guys mentioned 6 or more other accounts. If you could list those screennames, I can search my PTDB for them. Thanks!

So, it seems that these superusers, and the ones fingered in the original AP thread, are characterized by high VPIP, high winrate, and high river AF. Has anyone with a big db from other sites looked them over for this kind of pattern?

Sounds like it could be file problem in the PT folder. I recall something like this once. If you can't figure it out on your own then post the issue on the PT forums and they can likely help you.

fwiw I used to datamine a TON of hu hands on ftp. I had something like 3M hands gathered over 5 months at limits 2/4nl to 300/600nl. I never saw anything unusual about anybody's play there. I don't have that db anymore but if someone has it then you could skim through it just to be sure.

TRAMBO: In your communications with Phil and/or others, it surely must be possible to figure out just WHO these people were, no? I mean, they had to cash it out *somehow*...do you foresee making any progress in getting to the bottom of just who the scumbags were on the receiving end of these funds? (inside job maybe? AJ green involved?)

As you know, I have a good relationship with the head of the KGC. In the Absolute report, a big deal was made about the fact that KGC was satisfied that Absolute had fully refunded the affected players...Phil may subscribe to the "Sry, $ was cashed out, BLNT" school of thought, but the KGC won't agree, I doubt -- Of course, the KGC doesn't exactly have all that much pull in that as best I can tell the only thing they could do is yank UB's license and fine them, which might mean zip, but it's something.

not going to really dignify this with a response, but i echo MDMA - my hat is off to you guys for uncovering all this

There is a sick amount of money to be made on UB, completely understand playing there despite any of this. I'm sure Trambo made plenty of bank last year regardless of superusers, and in my case I play purely Omaha cash.. its tough to find enough games spread on Stars and Tilt, UB is necessary to maintaining my bottom line.

trambo get my AIM from somebody, want to talk

Get on aim

4,

"There is a sick amount of money to be made on UB"

As I wrote earlier: "After that, if you care, you could try to organize a boycott or something, but that's likely a waste of time more than anything else. Memories in the poker world are very short, and soft games trump principle for many players. I mean, look at AP. They actively lied and tried to coverup cheating they were aware of, changing the story multiple times, and only in the face of incontrovertible smoking gun evidence did they finally admit that cheating had occurred. And it's highly likely that management there knew this crap was going on all along. Yet people still continue to play there and at UB"

Look guys, im not sure what my final decision is going to be yet. For now im just gonna lay off poker for a little while and see what pans out.

for what its worth I remember nionio used to play .50/1 limit and he played almost 24/7. This was when I started to play poker circa jan 2006

We have no record of nionio ever playing .5/1 limit. And http://www.mypokerintel.com has all of the hands hes ever played on UB. Our only record from him playing limit is 1 session of 150/300

I also vaguely remember the same guy from canada which is UB sponsored winning almost all the goddamn wsop ME 10man qualifer. He must have accumulated about 10 buyins for ME LOLOL but I cant remember the name.

Any estimates how much UB is worth? Off the top of my head I'd want to say like 75 mil but I have no idea if thats reasonable.

CIRCA early 2006?

I was thinking the exact same thing, I could swear that was the name of some mediocre grinder from a long long time ago at SSNL.

Too bad I dont have any records, but yeah the same thought crossed my mind. I might be wrong and maybe it was a similar name.

Does anyone know how to record calls using Skype? I have been given Phil's phone number and I can call him whenever I want. Before I do so though I would like to talk to several other players who were in the investigation with me including Jmxthieves, gaucho, and snagglepuss. I want to get all of the info I need to present to him and ANY questions we could possibly think of. I also have to re-confirm that its fine for me to record our conversation with Phil although he did say yesterday that he would allow it

Does anyone else think we should bombard full tilt and stars with requests/demands that they do something to demonstrate their legitimacy on this specific issue? I realize making public too much information about how their systems run could do more harm than good, but at the very least a real independent audit would make a lot of people feel better and would establish that there are safe(r) places to play.

One site is a problem. Two, even if connected to each other, raises serious questions about the entire industry. As others have said, it is naive to believe that these are the only two cases. Just the fact that there is a second case shifts the burden toward the other sites to prove this can't happen there, and if Stars and Full Tilt are aggressive about doing this it could be a silver lining.

I'd like to write this off to one batch of bad apples, and guilt by association isn't fair to Stars, Full Tilt, and other sites, but this issue is as much about p.r. as the facts of the cases; those other sites need to be proactive.

Well, we already know Phil has no shame, let's see if he has any integrity.