I think thats a huge point in this discussion. The 9th is three days after the first event started and if busto did not consider tilt's action then he had his opportunity to tell him on the 9th. Action booked imo.

Just to be clear I haven't had any Marketplace history with busto23 or notontilt09, I met busto23 at Lake Tahoe but beyond that I don't personally know him. While I am not doubting notontilt09 creditability in the Marketplace but I have been pretty active in the past year and I don't remember him. I recognize 90% of the posters in the thread however. I highlighted all the creditable points. It's notontilt09 responsibility to post in the thread stating that he is going to send money, and then busto23 has to confirm that. That scenario never occurred, therefore action can't be booked in my opinion. I would even take a step further that busto23 might be able to get 4% of the action of the events he busted before the action of the 10k win, that's likely not going to happen though. It's unfortunate that this thread has turned messy, but busto23 never stated that PMs or Skype was exchanged in the thread. Notontilt09 had the opportunity to go on twitter to contact busto23 or in this thread to clarify this whole ordeal, and that would be the ways where he might be reserved but even then busto23 would still need to acknowledge that arrangement was acceptable

Thank you, flipxpelon562 for taking time to read through all of this and do cliffs.

One last thing I'd like to add to this, and I personally will consider the matter closed.

I would like to apologize to notontilt09 for accusing him of lying and trying to freeroll.
After talking to common friends I accept the whole timing of it was a coincidence.

However this does not change the fact that he has not been reserved. In all my 10+ packages on 2p2 market place I always (including this one as well) mentioned someone's name and the words reserved when I have given them action. I did not do this here because I did not reserve notontilt09's action (mainly because I didn't know who he was.)

Now back to the package, I talked to everyone and they all agreed with the switch, we'll do the math at the end, but basically removed the 1k and added the main and the 580.

#runpure

nice detective work, this seems logical

Thanks for the apology Val, but the matter isn't closed until you tell me why you asked me for the money after event 1, and why you added me on skype on the 9th when I asked if you could remind me about payment. Do you always follow up multiple times with people who have none of your action?

I've asked these questions politely in every post, and you've simply ignored them. I realize at this point that we're not going to settle, but I will make sure everyone who purchases action in the future from you is aware of what you've done here.

Good luck

love how u just keep insisting that its only on u to consider this matter closed. i mean i guess you can just refuse to respond to it but that would be pretty unprofessional and would definitely hurt your marketplace rep (imo). and lol at calling those quotes "cliffs"

either way, if you decide to take this to arbitration or not. do you not see how you could've (and did) 100% angle/freeroll notontilt. whether this was intentional or not, it doesn't really matter. every post/pm/skype was vague enough where u could claim this defense but if you bricked he would've certainly had to pay. I'm spent enough time sifting thru this thread but to say you ALWAYS mention the words reserved and then they are reserved doesn't matter. what does reserved even mean? certainly doesn't = booked. you had MULTIPLE chances to explicitly tell notontilt his action was not booked. but you chose to not respond to it thus leaving it open for interpretation.

I do apologize for that comment, not really necessary

At this point at least both parties are on talking terms and would wish you guys both agree to a settlement.

someone PMd me this thread and asked if i would take a look. Not sure i want to comment on the actual situation because as the thread went on, i started to skim stuff (esp the long posts which seemed to be things repeated a bunch).

It never makes sense to me though, why people wont go to arbitration. 2 reputable people in the MP have a disagreement and cant come to an agreement/middle ground and start to argue. Just have a 3rd party look at the situation and make a decision and move on. declining arbitration just makes you look silly. if you enjoy using the MP and have "faith in the system" and feel your side is right, then pick someone who is smart and not biased and solve this stuff.

how you handle these situations shows a lot about you as a person and also is a "interview" for future business partners to look at and evaluate. every time i have read notontilts post i always think "that sounds reasonable"... he just seems to be posting facts and what he felt happened. busto's posts make me feel like he just wants to move on all the time "this matter is closed" "not paying no matter what". usually one side looks better than the other...

I wont be able to arbitrate as i dont really have the time nor do i think i could put the necessary time into this. last time i was arbitrator for someone it took like 7 hours (ha ha)

I followed up one time at which point I didn't ask for money I asked what's going on. I'm no English expert but "what's going on" is not "where's my money". I wanted to give you a chance to reserve the action. I didn't ask you for money on skype. In fact I didn't say anything on skype besides "busto23 2p2" because my username is not obvious. I added you at 3am in the morning when I first opened it in like forever. Like I add any other poker player that asks me to talk to him (I basically have only poker players on skype.) If I wanted money I would have asked for it; which I didn't because I didn't reserve your action to begin with.

You are free to contact anyone and point them to this thread. I'm pretty sure my rep and results will speak for themselves when I'm going to post packages in the MP in the future.

this is a pretty terrible attitude to have in all situations. notontilt is a respected member of the MP, he has a problem with a business transaction involving you, and you want to just "move on" and not discuss it anymore.


Staking isnt a "black and white" thing like so many people wish/hope. problems arise and its how you work through them that will carry your rep through. I have passed on so many guys in staking cause i didnt think they were able to handle situations when they come up. I would urge you to go to arbitration and get this settled. if you are right, whats the harm? If you are wrong, it shows you are able to compromise and work through problems as they inevitably come up(which can only help your rep here and make investors that much more comfortable handing you money in the future).

My time and energy are valuable. notontilt09 already stated that he has free time to argue. So he can do that. I won't, that's all. Reputable posters like tarheelkid23, jw123 and turb0licious already sided with me on this. Not to mention other people that I have talked to outside of 2p2, every single one of them agreed with me. I trust their judgement and I think they are objective. I also trust mine, so that's why I consider the matter closed.

So you're implying he's a respected member and I'm a nobody. You are free to not buy my action if you think I'm not trustworthy or respect-worthy.

i never said you werent a respected member or were a nobody. i have seen you both post in the MP but dont think i have any dealings with either of you.

i am just saying, if some random was in here throwing mud around and didnt have the rep notontilt did, than its easier to sweep away.


and reading back at my other post, i already said this "...2 reputable people in the MP have a disagreement and cant come to an agreement/middle ground and start to argue...". its best you dont get defensive about this situation. it only makes you look bad.


just go to arbitration and work this out.

you should read my posts and remember what i wrote before you make assumptions about what i think about you. in fact, you dont even have to make assumptions as i stated i had seen you both around and both of you seem reputable.

My name is Ashly Butler, i buy a decent amount of action on here, and I know both Val and Dan better than most. I have bought multiple %s of and roomed with Val before(great guy, great player). I have sold/bought action w/ Dan, swapped %s multiple times, and most recently finished an $85k+ transaction with him where I was the lazy one and didn't pick up my money from him for nearly a month(no complaints from him either). I just read the entire thread and talked to both Dan and Val. I have to be honest Val, Dan is right to ask why you contacted him twice after you busted the first event in the package if you didnt consider his 4% booked. Why would you do that if he "was not reserved". Saying, "whats going on?" in a PM is no different than saying, "when are you sending $$ for your share." Yes, he is guilty of being lazy/slow in sending, but that doesn't warrant accusing a reputable member of the marketplace community and poker world in general of freerolling you for a few hundred dollars is absurd and unnecessary. Guys like Dan make it possible for guys like you to play these events. It also comes across as very defensive as well. Considering the "case closed" and moving on without proper discussion of the dispute is not the stance to take. Dan is a very reasonable guy with an impeccable reputation and buys tons of action in the Marketplace, you should at the least agree to arbitrate. It's best for both parties in my opinion. If you feel that strongly about how right you are, you should have no problem letting an unbiased 3rd party 2+2 mod arbitrate this matter. It would be the mature/correct thing to do, and it's what I would do if I was in your situation AND felt as strongly as you do about your stance. However, if it actually were me, I would just pay Dan his 4% share, as it is obvious to me that he wanted the action booked, and he was simply slow in sending the funds. He even asked you to drop him a reminder message on Skype, and you added him as a contact on there. I know for a fact he would have sent the money for his 4% after the tourney series was over had you bricked the package then asked him to ship the funds, 100% he would have, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. The contact between you guys after you busted out of the first tourney in the package confirms to me that both parties considered the action "reserved" or booked, even though the money had not been sent yet. You are both good guys, lets not allow one instance of laziness and miscommunication to sully anyone's reputation in the community. There is a middle ground here, so lets find out what it is and settle this matter like the calculating, reasonable young men that we are, okay?

Sorry Ashly, but I was very clear in both our phone conversation and in this thread. I did not reserve Dan's action at any point. He is wondering why I contacted him, and I already answered that plenty of times: I wanted to give him a chance to reserve the action. He didn't take it. It's as simple as that. His lazyness at fault? May be, but that doesn't matter. What matters is that I never gave him any action. He is presuming a "what's going on" a day after the 10-event series started equals "reserve 4%" 6 days after the series started which does not, in any language, and especially in mine.

fwiw ive had plenty of transactions happen during the series after the start of a tourny and from the outside it looks like he has the 4%
he made it clear he wanted the action, even telling you to remind him on skype which you did or did not? not sure exactly what happened on skype

also, you really need to calm down and be fair and open about this busto. dont see why you wont let an abitrator come in and settle things once and for all

Just because he wants the action doesn't mean I'm giving it to him. I never did. I'm not sure what part of "I never reserved him" is not clear. Maybe I should write it in Latin.

I already explained it but once again - nothing happened on Skype. I added him at 3am on a Sunday. I'm pretty sure I was drunk and I added a bunch of other people at the time. I didn't say anything nor did I consider it at any time a "reminder" or a "request for money".

so, you flat out refuse arbitration, right?

Yup. I consider the matter closed. The only reason I'm replying here about this still is out of respect for the people posting (you, deoxy and even notontilt09).

action imo is clearly booked

i will say the level of reputability of the buyer does matter (and perhaps this is a "problem"), that is to say if a very reputable guy posts for 1%, and hasn't sent when the tournies start, it is booked.. if the guy profits, woo, if not he must send the 1% (similarly in this thread, if busto lost, i'm sure he would be outting the other guy if he didn't send the 4% or whatever).

it matters a lot that you pmed him asking what's going on after busting event 1 though, obviously.

but MOST importantly, i agree 100% with what zima said, and thought EXACTLY the same thing before i read his post..

if you are a reputable and honest person, 100% you should agree to arbitration of a reputable, unbias third party and accept what decision they make! i think op is being really unreasonble, ignorant and arrogant (sorry for being harsh, but this is the truth) in the matter, the other guy keeps stating facts and you literally say "not paying no matter what" etc..
if i thought i was 99.99 or even 100% right, but others disagreed, i would accept arbitration. you need to realise that perhaps you aren't right here, and the fair decision may be he is booked, (or half booked, whatever)

busto, given the third party is 100% fair, and in your opinion will make the correct and fair decision given the circumstances, why would you not agree to this?

This guy knows all sorts of people. Apparently he's some big shot in the MP. And I know it's not about the money for him it's all personal. I can't be sure who's a fair third party. And honestly I simply don't want to deal with it. If this means I'm going to lose 3 of his friends that might have bought action in me in the future for the fear that I might somehow scam them (LOL!) I'm going to take that. I had tens of packages I always snap sent money and had no problems, and will have no problems in the future. I have results and anyone reading this that is not a buddy of this guy's will agree with me.

I got principles and it's a matter of principle for me. There's nobody in the world except maybe if he wants to sue me in legal court (which I will gladly take upon!) that will make me ever give him a dime.

PS I'm also an investor in the MP. I've bought tons of action, including in you and in Deoxy. I always snap sent before the event. I never came up with excuses, reminders or other stuff.

Also I'm not sure what the rules of the MP are but I want my thread to be about the package. If he wants to continue this debate because obviously he has the time to do it, I suggest he creates a new thread. I would really like this to be only with the people that actually invested in the package, it's unfair for them to have to go through all these unrelated posts.

If need be I will create another thread for it but I'm asking the mods to clean this and keep it clean. Thank you.

I have no idea who he is, never talked to him, read a post of his etc.. Same to you. I am completely unbias and gave you my opinion and how it looks. Why don't you suggest an arbitrator yourself if you are worried about an unfair one..

Dude it's not like some arbitrator who knows him is gonna side with him and be dishonest in the process about knowing him/being his friend. The point of picking someone unbias and fair is that they will be unbias and fair..!

You haven't answered his question properly, I kindly ask you to:

"Why did you ask him what was going on AFTER you busted event 1, if you considered his action cancelled?"

Also on a side note, slightly more accusational but I think more than fair to ask (so please answer), yes or no

"Would you have accepted a transfer if he had sent right after the PM mentioned above?"

i sure hope mods leave this thread how it is and let the discussions continue.

Enjoy the discussion, I need to go to bed My decision is final as I already mentioned like 5 times.