http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=4385

Cuse can't take a punch
Tho he's like the Kool-Aid Man
When he's eating lunch

there is no way this is ever a fold. I would laugh at you for trying this at the table. There are a few ways to fold. you can say fold. you can muck your hand. you can throw your hand off the table. "Take it, I'm down" is not a fold. The dealer should ask him if its a fold, not you. Where is the angle here? Maybe I am missing something

Before moving to Baltimore I had never heard the phrase "I'm down" but it is a an extremely common way of folding in the area.

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The dealer did ask, not me. And another floor told me they would have ruled it a fold, so it's not 100% clear.

The angle is that the player knew "I'm down," is used to mean fold about 95% of the time and believed it could not be ruled a fold, so he was trying to create confusion by manipulating the rules to create action.

mmmm

sucks but I wouldnt consider it an angle or get worked up. he thinks youre better than him so he uses weird tricks. no big deal

It didn't seem like an angle to me either, more like a miscommunication but I wasn't there and I've never heard the expression "I'm down" used in this sort of context.

Maybe he was DTF. I'd take it as a compliment.

I knew what he was trying to do and considered it an angle so I asked for a ruling. I think it goes beyond weird tricks but it doesn't really matter. Everyone has a different line for that stuff, and what's okay or not. Even regionally different things are considered part of the game or over the line.


Yeah he said after the hand he knew it wouldn't be binding in this room when he said it, so he knew what it would mean. I have heard "down," or "I'm down," used to mean fold pretty often - more by dealers than players.


I sure hope not, NTTAWWT.

Done for the day, 11 hours and 19 minutes brings me to 112 hours and 17 minutes through nine days.

Guys it's a clear angle and something you will see probably once every 500 hours or so.

The angle is trying to induce a muck from hero. You are correct that "ok take it down" is indeed not a fold** and that's the angle, his hand is still live and hero could have mucked. Variations are "you win" "let him have it" "it's yours" etc. When villain says this then holds onto his cards, it's like 80/20 between angle/genuinely re-thinking.

When he calls and then open jams a blank river it becomes 100/0.

I've seen this angle work. Several times. So it's the real deal and something to be wary of.


**except in Rounders ldo


Lol

Nobody said anything about "ok take it down" I guess you are saying this is another variation of that. If I was in the hand I would just assume he's babbling nonsensically.

Lol if he had any hand that beats QQ I feel like this wouldn't be a thread. And I feel you Angeled him by trying to get a fold. You're a pro. Don't play dumb games with fish. He shoves and you're like is that a fold??? lol that's an angle. There's already action behind and he just shoved his chips in the middle. Opposite of a fold.

Yeah, I can't ever imagine calling the floor in this instance. You are hoping he gets his hand folded when clearly he had no intention of folding.

It may be a regional difference. I can tell you that "down" is synonymous with fold in this area and is used frequently. It's to the point where, if you are standing up with cards in front of you and you say "down" the dealer will muck your hand without question.

Holy ****, I can't believe anyone is arguing that it wasn't clearly an angle to get Cuse to muck his hand.

This times a Milly.

That must be a regional difference too. We tend to stay seated in our chairs.

I hadn't really considered that possible side of it, that's a good point. I would think it was more of an angle to get me to muck if it was at showdown, I think this was an angle to make me think he was on the fence and then changed his mind. I'd think the first thing if the river went check-check and then he did the same thing.

If you read the quote, he said, "Take it... I'm down."

So the dealer and I were joking about it last night because someone in a hand with me showed his cards to the guy next to him in a similar way while hemming and hawing. He eventually folded, and I told the dealer I was having deja vu so we laughed about it and then discussed it. He said he never heard, "Take it," and he thinks that's the difference maker. If he had heard "Take it, I'm down," he would have taken the players cards because he would have considered that a verbal request from the player to take his cards. (Apparently in some places "I'm down," may not be synonymous with fold but I hear it a fair amount on the east coast.)

He just heard "I'm down," so that's what he repeated to the floor (which is fine, he's a good, attentive dealer and simply didn't hear it. I was right next to the player.)

It'd probably be a post about how a guy tried to angle me and it blew up in his face. I simply try not to let angle shooters freeroll people. As a pro I believe angle shooting is bad for the game, and letting them get away with it lets them keep doing it. What if next time he does it to a loose/action/rec player who is new to poker and is turned off by it and doesn't come back?

I'm a big believer that angle shooters should have a risk of a bad financial outcome for the stunts they pull. I had a guy shoot two in one hand last night that was multiway. I bet, player A is thinking and player B starts motioning his hands forward as if he's folding. Technically, this is forward motion with his cards and could be a fold. But he's trying to induce Player A to call to juice up the pot. I notice it, so it's just a huge tell when he then shrug calls the bet, "Okay, I'll see one more."

He then jams the river for $108 with a $100 bill playing behind so only $8 in chips. I ask if it's $108, and he says, "No it's $8."

This is the classic, "I was just joking," angle, but he wants me to call and then find out I called $108 and verbal is binding.

I folded, the other guy folded and he showed the nuts.

Now, I didn't get the floor involved there, but maybe I should have. I felt they were relatively minor angles and the $8 one was cleared up before the other player acted and I'm never going to fall for it... So I didn't think it was worthy of floor involvement, but a few hours later, he was openly talking about shooting another angle against another player... So maybe I should have to deter it?

Right, but he had intention of angle shooting me and tried to. Like, at the end of the day it's in my own best interest to let this guy keep shooting angles. I'm virtually never going to fall for one and it gives away the strength of his hand. But I don't want him doing it to a rec player, a new player, a fish who's going to get mad and leave, etc.

Plus, I just think it's scummy and don't want it happening in poker.

Do you play on the east coast? I definitely remember hearing this in AC, and now I hear it from time to time in Maryland. Giving that a lot of AC folks filtered around PA/MD/DE/etc I'm sure it's used now and then throughout the area.

Yeah, like I said before, I didn't even think of this interpretation of the angle, but I think he was more trying to trick me into calling off light given that he snap jammed the next street (aka he wanted more money in, not me to muck). That's definitely another interpretation of this action, though.

At the end of the day, either way it's a textbook angle. He knows the letter of the law, he has a firm belief on how the room will rule on his actions (although he's mistaken as it may only be 70-80% of floors), and he's doing something to incorrectly indicate his intent by taking an action that he believes will not kill his hand that other people will think might kill his hand.

Even though I didn't fall for it, I didn't want to let him get away with it.

FWIW, if I wanted to angle him back I wouldn't call the floor, I'd angle him back. I've never shot an angle in my life, and calling the floor is not shooting an angle. (To angle him back, I'd toss my cards forward toward the muck as soon as he said, "I'm down." Then his action induced a muck, and they could kill his hand. Ironically, falling for an angle can be a way to angle someone back.)

But I didn't do that, I just called the floor. And I wasn't even really disappointed in the ruling, I was disappointed he didn't get a warning.

Acting as if you're going to fold when you are player C and player A bets and player B is thinking is not an angle IMO, action is not on you so you can do whatever you want with your cards, chips, etc


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Moving your cards forward is, and actually is a really bad angle because out of turn forward motion can be binding for both folding and calling in some rooms. If you do this at the Horseshoe in Baltimore, I know of at least one floor (and would guess a few others) that will 100% rule it a fold if he gets called to the table on it. Probably 99% of the time your hand won't be killed, but there are definitely some people who will kill it by letter of the law on forward motion.

Some rooms don't have/enforce forward motion with cards, though, only with chips.

I'm in MD as well. I hear it relatively often.

Ah I c now. We are getting into the amazing 2p2 territory of defining what an angle is.

I should probably leave for a few days.

In California and Vegas they give zero fudks about what you do with your cards when action is not on you (as they shouldn't)


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In Vegas you can also pump fake forward motion with chips in cash games, can't you?

In Cali, LA at least, angle shooting is almost a tradition.

Obviously different regions are a little different and as Avaritia said, debating this will just be a mess... Let's all let it go.