Lol...by the way people react on here you could have fooled me.

Rationalism and humanism could be considered the idols of this age after all the two key words in the Garden of Eden temptation were "you" and "know". The philosophies of humanism and rationalism resemble these 2 words.

"You will be like God, knowing good and evil."

See, i can debate with you. Hopey is a clown that stretches and only picks his spots to argue. He fails to address all the issues and questions i bring up while i, in respect to the debate, address all the opposing points brought up. He resorts to calling my side nonsensical, while, willingly engaging in it. I am also a racist now and he's implied that i would hate the idea of a female president because i am a sexist, after i've repeatedly told him i don't hold sexist views, and would actually think it would be refreshing to have a female president.

Now to answer you, sir. Yes, splendour has, hasn't she? Fantastic point. I am surprised no one mentioned that in the course of the argument. However Judo, although a martial art, is more of a technique combat sport. Relies heavily on understanding of body leverage and is more take down/throw down/grapple than striking forms of fighting, which is why you can have physically smaller opponents beat much larger opponents. Usually the smarter more skilled fighter will win.

Judo has more striking then wrestling and wrestling is basically this"understanding of body leverage and is more take down/throw down/grapple....." . And what about grouping? The kid dont want to grope. How about you?

You're confusing judo with karate. There is no striking in judo.

You know more then me. Even so there is no higher level of striking in high school wrestling then judo.

What kills me is the way people ignore that discrimination is more complicated than people think. We've gotten so used to using it as a perjorative we ignore that some industries have legalized it depending on the situation.

The auto insurance industry follows legalized discrimination every time it decides to jack up insurance premiums on young males as if all young males should bear the responsibility for the high percentage of young males that get speeding tickets. Apparently someone was able to make an argument and get a law passed based on the group without regard to the exceptions to the group.

You've probably been watching mixed martial arts on tv. Judo is choke holds, arm bars, throws and mat holding techniques. All the more lethal moves have been removed from Ju jitsu to become another martial art known as Ju-do (the Gentle Way). Though you could kill someone with a choke hold if you didn't have a referee watching and stopping the match and/or the person caught in a choke hold tapping out.

True, but wrestling utilizes more strength, speed, & explosiveness than other grappling sports like brazilian jiu jitsu or judo. Wrestlers are some of the best athletes in the world, which is why good wrestling ability dominates the MMA sport of fighting. Judo is a whole different style of combat sport. Again, stop comparing sports, like you compare men and women. Doesn't work like that. And as for groping, why would you even touch that topic, when it only runs in my favor. If he doesn't feel comfortable touching the opposite sex in such a manner than that should be reason enough for anyone.

Groping isn't even an accurate description. Gripping is more accurate. You have to grab someone by their gi (judo costume) to toss them....Judo is usually far too offensively and defensively action packed for any type of "groping" to occur. You also have to be thinking about your technique and be worried about getting hurt and/or maintaining your balance to be worried about any hypothetical immoral aspect.

Sorry, not true, according to Splendour. I don't know, i've never taken judo, but i've known and conditioned at the gym with some top notch wrestlers (high school state champs and a guy that just missed olympic qualification in 2000).

The sports are similar. But if you're for mixed judo, thats good. I dont think the male wrestler would be.

It doesnt really run in your (his) or my favor. I dont think the close contact in wrestling between women and men is wrong, he does. Its a stalemate.

I know its grappling, the wrestler used the word grope. “and not looking at them as objects to be defeated on the wrestling mat to be, in some cases, groped or slammed.”

You were the ones who said people shouldn't make decisions without knowing all the facts?

How can you jump from arguing this should be always be so, to accusing people of doing it far too much?

Are you crazy?

I'm not sure where the discussion wires got crossed but I'm not interested enough in this topic to go back and re-read the whole thread. Most likely the subject changed or got re-interpreted some how.

Despite his claims, I don't know if it's just about religious inspired sexism. I wrestled all through junior high and high school, and my initial reaction to this thread was no way would I have wrestled a girl. I could probably get past the 'groping' issue because I'm thinking if a girl wanted to learn how to wrestle and knew what she was getting into, the physical contact involved with wrestling wouldn't bother me if it didn't bother her. It's more the physical aggression that would hang me up.

If you're the recipient of some of the techniques and takedowns, they hurt. So on first thought I'd have a non-religious inspired mental block inflicting that sort of pain on a girl. On the other hand, if she were to inflict that sort of pain on me, that mental block might go away. So, I don't know. Maybe if I started out in 7th grade wrestling girls, when the aggression isn't near as intense as in high school, and worked up to it might not be that big of a deal.

I do have some serious doubts about if girls can be competitive at the high school varsity level, just on strength alone. Just a guess, but I'm figuring at best we'd have an exceptionally strong female senior competing against the less talented and weaker sophomore males for a spot on the j.v. squad. I might be wrong on this, but if I'm not, I don't see the point in letting girls compete against boys.

because they want to?

I don't understand the "she can't play in case she sucks" argument. If a football team loses every match should they be prevented from playing next season?

Um, you know that can happen right? Do you watch sports? Teams get moved, bought out, eliminated all the team based on performance and fan support. So its not out of the question, to consider it. In fact, to prove it in other sports realms, in professional mixed martial arts, a fighter can lose his whole contract if he loses multiple bouts, depending on the contractual clauses.

You should have kept this to yourself, because now you're a sexist.

Whether you're Greco-Roman or freestyle might be a factor also.

If the rules of the league are that the bottom teams get relegated to a lower division or something then sure. The reason for that isn't 'because they might suck' though - the reason is (presumably) to foster a greater level of skill amongst those in the premier leagues through competition for spaces. That is - it's to give other potentially sucky teams a chance to prove themselves.

I was speaking specifically to the 'women shouldn't be allowed to wrestle men in case they're hopeless' argument. Doesn't do it for me - even if other arguments are sensible. I'm curious to hear duffe's defence.

EDIT: I don't watch sports as it happens - can't think of many worse ways to spend an afternoon.

Way to keep missing the boat by comparing professional sports to high school sports.

If my high school football team loses every game they are not getting moved to another school.

Yeah, this was the general gist of my hypothetical. Sorry if it wasn't clear. "She's probably pretty bad. Best keep her out of things for her own good." sounds pretty patronising and unhelpful to me. (Even worse if it's based on "Women are usually pretty bad. Best to keep this specific woman out of things.")

He's been constantly moving the goalposts throughout this thread. It's quite irritating.

Yeah, but its possible that funding for that particular activity may be cut due its poor performance. Then you just won't have a football team anymore.

All thanks to letting a girl tryout for the team!