Ah so all atheists who do good and have good morals are living as if God exists because if God didn't we would just live without morals.

not exactly no.

It means you act in a way consistent with not knowing whether or not God exists.



When you said:

"But they do not act as if they do not know, they act as if they do know. They live their lives as if God does not exist."

What exactly are my friends doing which makes you assert that?

That depends.

If you were sitting in your house and someone called and said your house was on fire you can either believe the proposition "the house is on fire" is either true, false, or you can have no belief in the proposition and say you don't know.

Now, if you were to sit there you may still hold the believe "I don't know", but by sitting there you are acting as if you do know, that the house is not on fire.

A better analogy is that someone calls and says my house is something.
I think about what that can mean. Is my house on fire, fine, flooded, small, structurally sound or perhaps under termite attack?
Until I have some idea what something means, it is pretty hard to take action.

I don't think jib is saying anything at all. "Look at those bachelors ! they live as if they weren't married." but, nothing new, just toss a phrase out that sounds like there's a thought behind it, like the " ..done for me " thread.

Or you tell me that my house is on fire...but the fire alarms aren't activating, I don't smell smoke, and when I look from room to room there's absolutely no sign of flames.

On what? They're obviously doing something that you identify as 'living as if god does not exist'. What is it?
Uh-huh...So sitting inside the house without doing anything is living as if the house is not on fire.

What actions are people performing which constitute "living their lives as if God does not exist?" What are they actually doing specifically?

I think he is saying something, but I don't think it's defensible. I think he's going to ultimately say "They're not going to church" or similar.

This analogy fails unless the fire is held to be invisible and undetectable.

I take it from this that you are defining 'living as though god does not exist' purely in terms of behaviour. From this I assume that you would consider both a Hindu and a Deist to be living as though god does not exist, right?

I think my eyes will hurt following the zigs if he stays long enough to try to make something worth posting out of a flip line.

I'm interested in trying to pin it down - to go beyond analogies to actual concrete examples. I think it's a common misconception worth disputing.

lol, well I don't go to church so I doubt that will be my qualifier.

By living my life as if the God of the bible does exist means that I am living my life as if a deistic or Hindu god does not exist.

So no, we are not talking about any invisible or undetectable "thing" here as there are very solid worldviews associated with various Gods.

Well, I don't actually know what your friends are or are not doing, so I cannot pin it down.

Exactly, do you disagree? How does one distinguish between sitting in the house and believing the house is not on fire and sitting in the house and holding no belief that the house is on fire?

Again, I don't know them so I cannot say anything specifically.

As far as what could constitute "living as if" there are many things. I would say that a core concept would the the source of your morals. Are you getting them from (or attributing them to) a specific God, or are you making them up as you go along?

If you are living your life in a self centered manner instead of a others-centered manner then I would say that you are living as if the God of the bible does not exist.

I think you see where I am going with this. Living as if "I don't know" is impossible and is therefore an empty concept.

Is that a yes? Sorry, it's just not very clear.

And yet you felt able to declare:

"They live their lives as if God does not exist."
By your actions. (For example you would respond differently to your wife if she asked "Is the house on fire?")

How does one distinguish between living as if God exists and living as if you don't know if God exists?
We're all making them up - based on various different inputs and weightings of those inputs. Does that mean I'm an atheist who believes in God? Or a theist "Living as if God doesn't exist"?
Leaving aside the sudden introduction of the Christian God, my selfless atheist friends are...what exactly? Don't say closet theists, please.
Well where I was going was that "Living as if God doesnt exist" is impossible and is therefore an empty concept.

Yes. I am not exaggerating here. I'll just state the events. They were several not just one main one that scared me into it. Its a progression by several events and of course my constantly searching.

-I had a disaster happen. I was athiest when I was 19, but never voiced them out to my majority church going friends. There was this night I debated with my housemates about religion and their blind faith in God, one was christian, other is a practicing buddhist, the next day, whether by chance or not, a fire broke out in my room and my whole room was burned down. Note none of my roommates room got touched, when the fire brigade finished clearing the fire, they realize the fire was just inches away from entering into my house mates room. It's hard not think I was not kicked away by God from the house. This was the beginning and I never converted after it, I was still pretty much atheist. But as you would imagine, my life afterwards was difficult. I lost all my possession at that point..

-And unexplainable joy that came all of a sudden. That is beyond material world. I was determined to do this something and while working, it just came. And I was just floored by this and been searching for what it is, then I cannot find another thing more suitable, than the concept of 'grace', which I know nothing of before.

-People that I met, by chance, that showed me a higher way of being.

I don' t mean to belittle your replies but I'm struck with the idea that (1). I find the idea that your atheism was founded in logic which would allow you to so easily abandon your atheism for such an irrational explanation (2) your need to explain chance (the fire was a personal message to you by god, besides being arrogant is nonsensical... God burned down your room but not others is an intentional act by a deity???). (3) your other reasons are just emotions... You experienced unexplained joy?! This is the sort of statement that makes me suspect your atheism was never firmly understood or based in reason.

Don't get me wrong... You seem happy in your belief system and that's all well and good, I just think your experience and reasoning doesn't sound compelling to a group who rejects these sort of emotive arguments for a god. Especially because these kinds of experiences are common among people of all beliefs, including atheists. The difference is most of us do not require a supernatural explanation for them.

oh, come on now, it's not like he just saw three waterfalls and that convinced . His room had a fire !! How could that not convince a skeptic of any strength. I'm rushing around right now tossing all the blessed matches in the sink.

You really think that's gonna stop pyro-god? Please.

Can you give an example of how im living like God exists? Because you have said this many times and i still dont get what you mean. The only thing i can come up with is morals.

Excellent. You had your own epiphany.

Be sure and not let anyone define your experience for you.

Neither.

See i think this is eventually going to break down to atheists live with morals so they live as though God exists. No?