yes i guess that is what I think people c/r on this board that they are "happy" to continue with. And yes, if he c/r the flop with these hands and gets 3 bet I think he will jam them. Please tell me why anyone would c/r the flop and then flat any of these hands to a 3 bet? So that their opponent can take 2 cards off to beat them? Are they just c/r'ing for no reason, just to be like "crap, he 3 bet me, now what do i do?"

And just lol at you implying that you will play perfectly on the turn and river with 65. What are you going to do on all of these turn cards? Any 6(3), 7(3), 8(3), 9(3), T(4), J(4), Heart(6). That's 26 cards that are awful, AKA more than half of the deck.

ding ding

You have explained absolutely nothing, other than we fold out c/r bluffs on the flop that have some equity vs us. Even though all of those hands are prime candidates to make big mistakes on the turn and river.

What C/R-bluffs are you talking about? I never said that he has complete bluffs or that I want him to fold bluffs.

I'm sure I'll play the turn the way that my flop C/R is more +EV than C/C. It's not even that hard since you're losing so much value by not C/R-ing flop there.

...

These are value hands and semibluffs...

You're making some decent arguments for 3betting and I'm sure its not 'horrific' like I implied earlier on. I do think you're over estimating how important it is to have a wider flop 3betting range.

The thing is, you've played 85 hands with this guy and who knows how much you're going to be playing against him in the future. There's tones of situations in poker where its just going to be really obvious that you have a ridiculously strong hand given the action, but that doesn't mean that you should just widen you're range in certain spots just so it makes you harder to play against. I mean, its like saying if you're getting in 1,000 bbs in with just AA you're a fish who's easy to play against.

Its not cool being a big nit and just 3betting here with TJ but adding in a couple of combo draws isn't going to drastically change his perception of you in the future. The guy you're playing with doesn't know what you're exact range here is anyway.

This is partially true and I didn't say flatting is horrific. As you may very well know, 100NL players can play at 5knl table with 4 regs and 1 fish being supernits and make money. Therefore it's obviously ok to be unbalanced.

But yes, I think it's bad to 5bet then 7bet then 9bet (or however it goes with 1000bb stacks) with AA (and only AA) 1000BB deep.

It must hurt to find out you are actually wrong again.

So of the range I gave him there are 11 combos of hands, 10 made hands, 1 semi bluff. We have the Th so he can't have it, that leaves AJhh. You are saying there is merit in calling the flop to bluff him off of AJhh if hearts miss? That's 1/11 that happens.

Then you said it's wishful thinking that he will check and fold his made hands when a bad card falls. If that's the case, then we have implied odds with our FD and OESD. He will probably continue with the hope of filling up on the river. Then we have additional bluffing equity against those hands that will bet the turn and c/f the river unimproved or that will c/c the turn and c/f the river unimproved.

Alright fair enough, at NL100/NL200, they're not messing around after 8bets. Must be different at NL5000.

lol, you don't even get the start of it

Honestly dude, I don't know why you're getting pissed at me, my posts were fairly courteous. I'll leave you to it, I'm going to go off on one of my deepstacked NL5K bumhunting sessions, only this time I'm getting it in light

Lima even though I'm not sure I agree about all of your assumptions (that typically players will checkraise-call more much more than than they checkraise-shove making this hand a 3bet), it is clear that you "get it."

I used to find myself in the situation you are in now pretty often on these forums. My intentions were always to help and I'd usually only post when most of the advice was flawed so I'd be the dissenting opinion. But once people start "LOLing" and saying your posts are horrible, it becomes hard to let it slide when not only do you know you are correct, you can see their viewpoint clearly and you can see why they are wrong and why they can't understand why you are right. What often happens is your intentions change from just wanting to help to having to defend yourself and it plays out like this thread.

Since most people are so fixed on their viewpoint, the only way you will convince them is if you do the arduous math that is irrefutable, but that is obviously not going to happen. So it's best to just shrug your shoulders and let it go if people don't want to explore why they're wrong.

Now if you're posting to stroke your ego by showing you are smarter than everyone, that's also clearly a waste of time.

I would love if somebody would do said math. I find that this thread has become difficult to follow and understand correctly. Maybe I'll have to take some time on the weekend and try to figure it out.

It also seems to me that the villain having a flop check/raise/call range which he would fold to turn barrels is important for hero to be 3betting the flop.

While I was playing the hand I did not think villain would really have much of a flop check/raise/call range. I didn't think he'd have much of a flop check/raise/fold range either.

Did this rather quickly ,so may have errors but this is what I came up with:

On the flop, there is $92.00 in the pot, Hero bets $73.00 and Villain raises to $193.50. Hero calls $120.50. The pot is $479. In this scenario, hero needs 25.1% equity to make a break even call.$120.50/$479.00.


Hold'em Simulation ?
1,540 trials (Exhaustive)
board: 9c8h7h2c
Hand Equity Wins Ties
KhTh 27.63% 412 27
99,88,jt,56 72.37% 1,101 27
Edit • Link • 2+2 • Deuces Cracked • Leggo

Given this range, hero has ~28% on a street by street basis.

Going back to the c/r by villain of $193.50, the current pot is $358.50. If hero decides to reraise, he would call the $120.50 and raise $479.00 to make a pot size raise. Hero now has $1092.50 behind and the pot would be $958.00 with Villain to act. Villain can fold, call or raise. If he raises, he will call the $479.00 to make the pot $1437.00 and will raise $1092.50, enough to put Hero allin. The pot will be $2497.46 and Hero will have to call $1092.50. Hero needs 30.4% to make a break even call. 1092.50/$3589.96.

Hold'em Simulation ?
33,660 trials (Exhaustive)
board: 9c8h7h
Hand Equity Wins Ties
KhTh 44.86% 14,494 1,214
99,88,jt,56 55.14% 17,952 1,214

Given the same range, hero has ~45% equity if he gets to draw to two cards.

The most interesting thing is if Villain flats Hero’s raise, and what he does on a blank turn. If Villain leads, hero is making a ~$30.00 –ev call.


If Villain flats Hero’s raise and checks blank turns, Hero goes allin on the turn. Villian is now in a situation that unless he has JT or less so 65, he almost has to fold because Hero is repping exactly those hands. Since Hero has a T, the chance that Villain has JT is diminished by 50%, and his chance of having the oesd is diminished by the same amount.
If he has a set, his equity against jt is:

Hold'em Simulation ?
2,112 trials (Exhaustive)
board: 9c8h7h2c
Hand Equity Wins Ties
jt 77.32% 1,633 0
99 22.68% 479 0

~23%. If Hero bets the turn allin , Villain is now getting the 30.4% equity requirement but has only 23% equity, if Hero did have JT. If Villain calls, he is making ~$70.00 theoretical error.

The hand that ****s up Hero's equity is obviously AhJh, but what are you gonna do if he actually has that hand?

Lazarus, your assumptions seem a little off. First off, I don´t think
it´s mandatory to make the flop 3bet potsize (unless we have zero bluffs?)

Secondly, regarding the situation where villain flats the 3bet I don´t see why he would fold all but JT/56 just cuz hero "reps" that (which I also disagree about since I wouldnt be surprised to see heros taking this line with sets and combos also) Further around this point, I would expect to see a cr-call rarely.

3rd, I´m not super with odds but it does´nt sound right that hero having a T in his hand diminishes the likelyhood of villain JT having by 50%?

Well they are only assumptions to show the way the math could work. And yes , having a T reduces the likelyhood by 25%, not 50%.

+1 3b flop