So what you are saying is that he folds all other possible 65s, 77, T8s, T9s, J9s, T7s, 96s, Axhh etc when we 3bet flop? And you're still not 3betting it? lol

Also lima. Based on the type of advice you've been posting that I've seen, I'd guess that you do really well against other regulars, but struggle from time to time against fish.

no, the biggest difference between our 2 thought processes to me seems to be that I think villain is a lot more polarized than you do. I just don't see people c/r folding value hands ever in this situation, what good does that accomplish? I also don't agree people are c/r'ing 65 here very often, that seems like complete puke since a million turn cards suck for them and make their life complete hell. So they have a really polarized range of strong value hands and bluffs. 3 betting the flop only seems to isolate us against the really strong part of that range, also it prevents villain from making big mistakes on the turn and river if he is bluffing because some of the good bluff cards make our hand. Basically my thinking is that I'm not sure villains are c/r'ing all of the hands you just listed, 3 bet semi-bluffing a super polarized range seems silly here, and nobody has really laid out what makes it so good. I'd rather take position, deep stacks, and a hand with good equity.

I mean I am honestly VERY interested to hear/see a detailed description for why it is essential to be 3 betting this hand here but I am skeptical.

Not to c/r 65 on this board is a crime.

Don't we want him to fold everything else (which had a lot of equity vs our hand) except the strong part of his range when we only have a draw? You make it sound like it's a bad thing.

Tell me you don't puke with pretty much any hand except 99 and JT when u get 3bet on this board OOP this deep?

this is what i meant when i said getting it in with that hand is important for our range even 180bb deep. If he call your flop 4bet you can just barrell on anything.

also if we know a flop 4bet get-in is profitable and is making us money i don't see why we should take a risk of playing the hand in a more tricky way to maximize your EV when in reality it may only give you more opportunity to make mistakes, by example checking back KT here on the river. let's face it, its not like we can outplay villain incredibly when ranges are so narrow and he has initiative.

i just dont see how 4betting the flop can not be really profitable assuming we have 40% (thanks math guys) when we get in, and adding to that the % of time he folds on the flop, and the % of time he calls flops 4bet and fold on later streets.

This is an easy check back. Only thing you need to know is that villain will never put us on a bluff. Are we turning an overpair into a bluff on this river, really? Only value you may get is from lower flushes. Otherwise you'll either get folds from a worse hand or raised by a boat

I agree with this but it means that we have a lot of FE if villain folds his bluffs, which could have a decent equity against us, so 3-betting is better than calling unless you think that villain will give up on brick turn a lot.

I disagree with this sentence and it seems contradictory to me: if we have a strong hand on flop and a lot of turn cards sucks for us and we have no redraws we should raise flop for value and protection

This is the most valuable argument for a flatting imo.

Also I have some thoughts about your range: If KhTh is bad to 3-bet-get in how AhJh would be good for c\r and get in(it collects less dead money and it has less equity vs a reasonable range). It worse than 6c5c for example(for 1% but still) and it looks like you correct villain's range a bit to prove your point of view

I just don't expect a lot of c/r's here.


I really really disagree with both you and lima here. I still thinking c/r'ing 65 here sucks this deep. If a lot of turn cards suck for us and we have no redraws why would you want to inflate the pot OOP when you are deep enough where you are more than likely going to have to navigate both the turn and river. Any 6(3), 7(3), 8(3), 9(3), T(4), J(4), Heart(6). That's 26 cards that are awful.

I mean lima is saying that not c/r'ing 65 here is a crime, yet 26 turn cards will be very very terrible for us, and even he says that if we get 3 bet on the flop and don't have 99/TJ we are in a really ****ty spot. So my question is why would you want to put yourself in either scenario A) you c/r flop, villain calls and you are lost on more than 1/2 of all turn cards in an even bigger pot vs. an even stronger range than if you had just c/c'd the flop B) you c/r flop, villain 3 bets and now you are even more clueless as to how to continue

I didn't try to doctor the range to prove my point, I put in what I think is a good c/r for value range. As I stated in the paragraph above I think 65cc is a crappy flop c/r.

I asked you like 10 direct questions in my last few posts and you didn't answer 1 of them directly.

Please do and then we can keep discussing the hand.

How can checkraising 65 be that bad when u have the 3rd nut and a million worst hands are going to call you?

People who are bad with handreading and playing turns are obviously scared of everything.

Lol, Flop isn't gonna get 3b very often, as you can see from the posts in this thread (yours especially).

Now answer my questions, please.

I wasn't really expecting him to fold to a 3bet almost ever after check raising this board 3 ways. Wasn't really expecting him to call too often either. I thought it would mostly be a shove. I guess other people estimated his check raising range and what he does with it vs a 3bet.

Well technically, he only check raised 2 way because other villain folded, but w/e. There 36 bbs in the pot when we have to act. If we make it 600, he is folding a part of his range that we are currently behind and that has reasonable equity against our specific hand. Who knows how often he is folding but we have FE that is not inconsequential.

He is shoving his strongest range, which we have 45% against with two cards to come.

3-betting flop/shoving turn is a no brainer especially when our winning hand is a flush. Are we getting paid on a non board pairing heart?

Plus there are the rare times we get this type of river and don't know what to do.

jam, what does flatting accomplish?

IF he c/r'd 65 and 77 I wouldn't expect him to fold it on the flop at all. I'm just not sure how you can quantify that 3 betting the flop and getting him to fold T8, T9, T7, 96 is better than flatting. If you think he is c/r bluffing enough to where 3 betting is going to be profitable why not do it with worse hands than KThh? And also if you think he is going to be c/r'ing a lot here as a bluff and following thru on a ton of turn flatting KThh here seems like a no brainer flat the flop, jam the turn. At least that way you get him to put in a lot more money with his bluffs, and you can put in the last bet.


Yes, I would feel very crappy to get 3 bet on this flop with anything but 99/TJ unless I had a reason to believe that my opponent was going to be going crazy. I would not put myself in this scenario.

I mean, u replied to my post with "wtf r u talking about?", then u follow up with the worst set of posts ever. 3 betting the flop is better because his range as a whole is a pretty wide one, and 1 pair+sd type hands have good equity against us, and they will fold to 3bet more often than not. Calling is terrible. The whole point in this is whether or not we get paid if we make our draw (without pairing board), and we dont. Altho u seem to think thats bad reasoning. The flop is clearly either a 3bet or fold, and folding is bad given our equity obv. You also said that it shouldnt be too hard to get to showdown ip. Lol, so just coz we have position we dont have to call further bets that we dont have odds to call on the turn?

El oh el

You're assumptions about his range and this hand are way off. A competent players range for check raising after you have cbet into two players on one of the worst flops to be cbetting a weak hand is actually really strong and narrow. In my experience and I'm sure alot of people's, most competent regs are flatting pair + straight draw hands in this spot given the action and the stack depth.

I'd also check back the river as I can't see many regs showing up with a hand they are check/calling the way the hand played out. And another thing, lol at anyone who thinks you need to be concerned with having a balanced 3betting range on the flop against somebody you have played 85 hands with.

Anyone who thinks calling the flop is terrible just doesn't get it. I mean, I can understand different players have different styles, and it may be that 3-betting isn't so bad for them but calling is obv standard for most players.

so your flop range is 99+?

you have ok arguments and nobody said that calling the flop was terrible like another poster implied. I just think you are putting the average villain on too tight of a range because you are kind of tight yourself. No offense obviously, this style is obv working for you. i just think there's a ton of things that can go right if we 4bet the flop and even in the worst case scenario (that he shoves) we still have really decent equity.

I really, really dont get this. I mean wtf. R u saying that villains range is strong so 3betting/getting it in is bad vs this range? If thats the case, then the turn is an auto fold then yea?

lovetherb, please leave complicated mid-stakes strat talk to the good posters and players of MSNL. You're out of your depth ripping into nwc, and ruining a good thread imo.

Lol yea, ok. I may play for pennies for fun now, but i can gurantee that i have played higher and made more $$$ online than u ever have. U should look into these things before u make comments like that

I may not even have a flop c/r range here, the sole purpose being how difficult it will be to play turns and rivers vs good opponents in an inflated pot. Obviously quite villain dependent tho.

I'm saying that calling and using position is more +ev than anything else.

Well, i figured thats what you were saying. Im asking why?