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10-22-2009 , 09:54 AM

#4301

JDalla

Total Boar

Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 15,542

Village has to get incredibly lucky to snipe Jigsaw in the first few days considering he's a godfather AND can't be NKed. And if that huge rungood happens, there will still be 7 wolves, of which some may have already been peeked as village... and ANOTHER godfather! With the villagers having seen in the jigsaw writeup that there was already a godfather! That's gotta be a pretty close game imo, and that's only if we luckbox the jig kill very early.

Quote

10-22-2009 , 09:57 AM

#4302

DannyKGB

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,688

the game was pretty nifty overall. I think we need more games with cool in-game puzzles, hints, in thread attacks, and other shenanigans.

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10-22-2009 , 11:25 AM

#4303

ElliotR

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 30,029

So this was the message I got:

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsball8806

You are to quote this post

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=2238

and bold "Let the games begin"

in the game thread

thank you!

The title was "Mod Message".

I don't know about you people, but when I get a message like that from a game mod I'm executing it post haste. Why? BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE GAME MOD KNOWS, and for all I know doing something at a particular time is part of the Game Mod's plan.

Thanks to WERx for the kind words.

Esse, not wanting to kill others is not an excuse for killing me, which was terrible.

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10-22-2009 , 11:27 AM

#4304

biggerboat

you're gonna need one

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 49,182

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElliotR

So this was the message I got:

The title was "Mod Message".

I don't know about you people, but when I get a message like that from a game mod I'm executing it post haste. Why? BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE GAME MOD KNOWS, and for all I know doing something at a particular time is part of the Game Mod's plan.

You are preaching to the choir.

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10-22-2009 , 11:27 AM

#4305

ElliotR

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 30,029

The really weird thing about the mod mesage was that after pointer's death was announced, bsball sent me this message, with the subject "sorry...":

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsball8806

if this gets you killed

obv my mistake

That is why I wasn't sure if my action was really connected to pointer's death that day. But I also didn't feel that it was my place to reveal these communications -- if the game mods wanted the players to know they would announce it.

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10-22-2009 , 11:32 AM

#4306

ElliotR

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 30,029

All in all, this was a very fun game and I don't mind at all that it was so hard (impossible?) for the village to win. Frankly, I'm glad that wolves finally won a mishmash and I was glad to see some effort made to beef up the wolf team to compensate for the inherent advantages a village gains in a long game (to be fair, ILB tried too in LOTR).

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10-22-2009 , 11:39 AM

#4307

MinusEV

Giftastic!

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 12,372

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElliotR

I agree - with that kind of message you didn't really have any choice but to post it and do so right away and you did as good a job as you could explaining it after considering the circumstances.

Really don't like throwing something like that into the game though - not fair on you or the other villas.

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10-22-2009 , 12:11 PM

#4308

biggerboat

you're gonna need one

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 49,182

It just occurred to me that no one has give norse props for his awesome peeks!

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10-22-2009 , 12:13 PM

#4309

atakdog

addicted

Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 50,136

Thinking more: the conversion mechanics, which never came into play, and fact it's nearly impossible to killJigsaw do make the game unwinnable for the village. Still, we should have gotten it to that point.

dmk, chuck, et al's point about villagers not caring is definitely true. Wolves often don't care, too, but the phenomenon is heavily slanted toward villagers. People who aren't going to try unless they get what they consider an interesting role really need not to play.

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10-22-2009 , 12:22 PM

#4310

dmk

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 31,431

i had arguably the least interesting role in the game. i had no powers and was involved in no traps. the only way i was linked to anything was that if dr gordon died, he could still protect if i was alive.

i still managed to put in the effort

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10-22-2009 , 12:47 PM

#4311

MinusEV

Giftastic!

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 12,372

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmk

Well, boohoo - try being a little girl locked in a closet waiting to be rescued

Edit: and btw, who killed me?

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10-22-2009 , 01:34 PM

#4312

globetrotter

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 17,707

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDalla

My thoughts:
2) The game is very very unbalanced, even without village fail.
- Multiple worse than vanillager roles, some of which necessarily direct the village's attention to certain weird things
- A bunch of poisioned villagers
- A writeup with 3 (at the time) villagers saying one will "tear the village to pieces." I was actually considering that I might be converted but I thought it made more sense for bigger's role.
- TWO GODFATHERS
- oh wait, more like 3 godfathers since Hoffman peeked as an agent.
- The thing were globe could die instead of Hoffman
- OTI being invincible while McAvoy was alive
- a double role blocker
- village masons that died in pairs
- villagers that had to vig other villagers to stay alive
- villagers that had to "fight" each other were only one could live, the winner of which could be converted to a wolf!

.... I'm probably not even remembering some of the things. All in all I'm not sure any village could have done this unless we got super lucky and sniped McAvoy in the first 2 days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDalla

All that being said, the game really impressed me in some ways -

There were some really cool role ideas which had never been used, and I hope they are utilized for future games. Even my role, while frustrating for me, was a really interesting twist - a villager that has to lie. Imagine if I was a seer as well!

The riddles were cool too, although maybe too hard!

I think I will retire my hiatus next year for Saw II, because I really liked the game design in general apart from being horribly unbalanced. The village really needed to be much stronger here, even the village hadn't been a fail bucket I still don't see us getting past f7 or f5 in this setup.

But TYVM mods, I can tell a ton of work went in to this game and it's extremely creative and impressive

I agree w/ a lot of this. Really interesting game, but also really tough for the village to win.

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10-22-2009 , 01:36 PM

#4313

globetrotter

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 17,707

Quote:

Originally Posted by MinusEV

Thanks for modding tepm!

It was a fun, but very frustrating game to follow mostly from the sidelines. I considered trying to sub in again, but I don't really like people getting back into games they've been killed out of and figured it would be a fun game to follow from the sideline too. Kinda regretted that decision later though.

I think one of the main problems with the balancing in the game is that a lot of characters got too much responsibility that they didn't bother or wasn't able to handle. The way the roles and puzzles were thought out deserved a lot better play than they mostly got, with knee jerk reactions and people just not caring enough to think about what they were doing. So many dumb decisions could have been avoided if all players had made the small effort of researching their characters and trying to get some info before making decisions.

The balancing seems to give the wolves a fairly big advantage, but if all the villas had given the game a lot of effort, it could probably win. Problem is, in a 40+ player game, you can't really expect that.

Still a really interesting game and I look forward to a Saw 2

I agree with this too.

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10-22-2009 , 01:39 PM

#4314

globetrotter

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 17,707

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmk

also, great game mod

to people that complain about a game while its in progress - please don't do that. wait until the game ends to provide feedback. complaining about how unbalanced it is is angleshooty at worst and unproductive at best.

i don't know why people couldn't get it through their heads that there were going to be a lot of odd mechanics. i mean, we saw that in the first hour w/ bigger/atak, but still going into d6 people refused to believe that certain things would happen as they did (zep, the 3 avatars being villagers, etc)

this game is a clear example of where the metagame is right now. villagers rely too much on "solving" the game through peeks, claims, and mechanics. there is not enough true wolf-hunting. everyone was so wrapped up in the mechanics even after several of us pointed out (time and time again) that there were specifically roles allotted for the evils to claim that wouldn't coincide with assigned roles. it is not difficult to pretend to be a role when you know starting from d1 which role you will pretend to be, etc.

meh

I'm going to have to think about this and how to be less of a noob as well... lol

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10-22-2009 , 01:44 PM

#4315

globetrotter

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 17,707

Quote:

Originally Posted by McAvoy

I suck at game mechanics and balancing but I think a discussion might be good here.

We had 5 wolves to start with 3 to convert later. So a potential 8 wolves in 36 people. But 5 to start.

I think one place where the Mod didn't take into account, is having so few wolves leads to less interactions. When you have more wolves, once a wolf is found, then you can go back and look at his interactions to clear people. With so few wolves, it makes for a longer time before finding a wolf and its easier for them to hide.

However it doesn't help when not one single villager did an OTI re-read after he was outted wolf. That is how you wolf hunt and clear people folks, by looking at wolves and their interactions. If you don't go look, your not going to find the wolves.

But I agree this game has potential to be highly favoured in the wolves if Jigsaw lives past d3 and pro villa if he doesn't.

I did an OTI reread. But I also got a PM saying lucky was Hoffman and I also thought I had the Bigger/JDalla/MM1 thing figured out.

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10-22-2009 , 01:45 PM

#4316

McAvoy

banned

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 46,476

Wolf PM to shed some light on Elliot and other stuff

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gideon Kramer

The wolves have 24 hour chat. Players and their roles are listed below:

McAvoy - Jigsaw

Godfather wolf who peeks villa and receives one additional night kill.

You can only be killed by being lynched.

Once per game, if at any point a player quotes one of Zepp's posts (ElliotR), you may PM me with the post number. I will then PM Zepp and inform him that he is to quote the specified post with the bolded text "Let the games begin." That player is then killed.

When you are killed, all "Minions of Jigsaw" are converted to the wolf team.

_____

OTI - Billy the Puppet

You cannot be killed as long as Jigsaw is alive.

Each night you may submit the name of one non-Agent villager. That following player becomes a "Minion of Jigsaw." You cannot have more than 3 Minions of Jigsaw at any time or unselect a player as a "Minion of Jigsaw." Dr. Gordon, Michael, or Jeff cannot become "Minions of Jigsaw."
______

Nichsp27 - Amanda Young

Peeks as villager as long as Jigsaw is alive.

Wears a Pig Mask which disables one night time ability targetting you.

Peeks as poisoned until poison gas clears.

Each night may peek the full ability of one player.

You also hold a false antidote which may be given to any player. This can be given to any player like a regular antidote and they will be informed that they received an antidote, but will not heal the poisoned condition.
_____

LuckyDevil - Detective Hoffman

There are 5 other Agents in the game. When one other agent character remains, your name and affiliation are revealed to remaining Agent by PM.

If at one point you are to be killed, you may submit the name of one Agent. This Agent "valiantly defends you in the line of duty" and dies in your place.

You are peeked as an Agent and not as a wolf.
________

Jill - housenuts

All night actions targetting you are delayed one night.

Every night you may submit the name of two players.
These players' actions/abilities are disabled for that night and following day.

_______

Claimables:

The following roles have not been used in the game and may be claimed:

Diana Gordon
Cecil
Gus
Troy
William
All of the Fatal 5 from Saw V
Erickson (An Agent)
Detective Sing
_____

Good luck! Let the games begin...

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10-22-2009 , 01:47 PM

#4317

ElliotR

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 30,029

So I still don't get why bsball sent the "sorry" PM.

Quote

10-22-2009 , 02:06 PM

#4318

McAvoy

banned

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 46,476

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElliotR

So I still don't get why bsball sent the "sorry" PM.

The other mod wasn't around and I don't think bsb was aware of the mechanism. If I recall correctly, we had to convince him it was true. It was obviously thought up to put heat on you and get you mislynched but bsb obviously felt bad once he seen the ramifications that it had in the game.

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10-22-2009 , 02:26 PM

#4319

WinEvryRacex

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 12,929

Quote:

Originally Posted by biggerboat

It just occurred to me that no one has give norse props for his awesome peeks!

norse peeked elliotr the night after he claimed miller

Quote

10-22-2009 , 02:28 PM

#4320

MinusEV

Giftastic!

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 12,372

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElliotR

So I still don't get why bsball sent the "sorry" PM.

I assume it was because he initially typed 'elliotr has been killed' when quoting your 'let the games begin' instead of the player you quoted (pointer) who really got killed.

He changed it soon after, but it caused a bit of confusion in the thread and that was what the 'has no bearing on elliots role' message was about too.

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10-22-2009 , 02:52 PM

#4321

MoneyMatt1

VAMOOOO irl

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 25,995

so there were 3 Godfather roles and 2 players that couldnt die at night, and one that had an extra day to live if they were shot at

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10-22-2009 , 03:00 PM

#4322

essedarius

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 28,137

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoneyMatt1

so there were 3 Godfather roles and 2 players that couldnt die at night, and one that had an extra day to live if they were shot at

You're forgetting the 3 extra wolves they would have incase Jigsaw died..

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10-22-2009 , 03:05 PM

#4323

biggerboat

you're gonna need one

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 49,182

Quote:

Originally Posted by essedarius

You're forgetting the 3 extra wolves they would have incase Jigsaw died..

I also forgot to mention I think you played quite well, bodie.

Quote

10-22-2009 , 03:05 PM

#4324

essedarius

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 28,137

All the bitching aside, I just really hate losing, I can't stand it at anything I do.

The game was really great, so thanks for modding it. I liked the aspect of having people in traps, but I feel like it made power role hunting easier for the wolves. I realize a game like this is very hard to balance proberly, because afaik there hasn't been anything quite like this game. Ignoring the balance issue, this game was one of the best ones I've played in.