Free Phil Ivey meet .

If you aren't going to accurately summarize my response, then spare me your fake *** thanks for the service of myself and others because I don't need it or want it.

If the allegations in the indictment are true, then Stars and FTP broke the law and should be punished accordingly. No one forced them to break the law. They could have left the U.S. market just like PartyPoker. They chose to be greedy. If you think the folks that are indicted are heroes, then you are a seriously misguided individual.

/thread

you really cant /thread when the majority in the thread disagree with you

"Freedom has its life in the hearts, the actions, the spirit of men and so it must be daily earned and refreshed - else like a flower cut from its life-giving roots, it will wither and die. ~Dwight D. Eisenhower"

I think Ike would have more respect for people who vote, serve in uniform or do anything constructive to support and defend the freedom that we have. But maybe you are right, and it's just better to just cry like a baby on 2+2 while throwing your arms up in the air saying "The government is corrupt...nothing can be done!"

BTW, thanks for insulting the majority of members in the U.S. military.

why are you spending so much time whining about the people whining on 2p2? shouldnt you be off bettering the country Mr patriot?

If the majority of people in this thread would uncork their heads from their ***es and take off the rose-colored glasses, they might see Stars and FTP for what they are. Then they would likely agree.

The sad part is that most players (US and non-US) on here will give Stars and FTP a pass when it comes to bank fraud, because of "outstanding" customer service provided by the sites. The same "outstanding" customer service that was supported (allegedly) by taking illegal and seriously misguided risks with the same players money. I would say these folks are the real "sheep".

What do you think I am trying to do? I'm not whining...I am trying to better the country by educating ignorant degenerates. I hope online poker eventually does become legal and regulated so these folks can go back to living in their "bubble". Until that happens, the rest of us in the real world are going to be stuck dealing with them and their inability to accept reality.

Excellent! I see you think it's funny that someone should have the audacity to believe that a poker site should be expected to act transparently when it comes to dealing with the customers money. Isn't that what being ethical is all about, or so you claim with regard to Stars and FTP? I guess not or your definition of ethical is quite removed from standard.

BTW, keep giggling and spare me your explanation, since I'm pretty sure it is rooted in complete bull****.

This is the funniest thing I've read on this site since 4/15/11.

ps You're doing it wrong.

It's your right to reject my appreciation for those who defend my freedom to play online poker. That doesn't change the fact that I appreciate theirs and your service. It just means you're upset I called you out on your arrogant bull****.

PartyPoker left the market out of greed too, you moron. They were publicly traded, and covered their own ass by leaving the market. You don't think they were acting out of self-interest too?

The UIGEA ****ed everything up. PERIOD. If not FT and PS, then any other site that would've taken their place. You sir, have a collossal misunderstanding of what actually took place over the last 5 years, and why they did.

I'm not angry that I can't play on PS and FT anymore and make teh moniez. I'm angry that this entire situation could've been avoided years ago if the government wasn't so ******ed in the first place. This massive black hole was their own ****ing fault, and they're spending my tax dollars and wasting DOJ resources cleaning up their own mess, AND it's keeping me from playing on FT and PS and making teh moniez.

Exactly. Do you know how we "earn and refresh it daily?" By living our ****ing lives! This includes serving the armed forces, BUT DOES NOT EXCLUDE EVERYTHING ELSE.

Anyone who signed on to FT and PS knew the risk going in. Ignorance is not an excuse.

This say it all. You sound almost as ignorant as Ms. Prentice when she says, "Let them go pump gas."

PS has already gotten my money pending in my bank account as of this morning. I expect FT to do the same at a later date. This isn't because they're not transparent, it's because their customer service has ****ing sucked for years. I still trust they will get me my money.

If its legal to offer online gambling in the USA and the DOJ is wrong then how come every other company in the world with an interest in gaming hasn't challenged the DOJ claims. Why was it only us facing sites that said offing online poker is not illegal. Why don't the big casinos,foreign online rooms that dodn't serve the US and card rooms challenge the DOJ. Why do casinos want legislation if all they have to do is get the courts to prove its already legal. Seems to me everyone except the US facing sites thinks the DOJ is probably correct.

I've asked similar questions before...I hope you get a cogent answer.

If you are an entrepreneur about to sink loads of money into a venture, would you prefer to be certain your venture is legal or would you be willing to take the risk that your venture might someday be deemed illegal?

Not everyone makes the same choice: some like to gamble, many take a close look at the risk/reward which can be debated and manipulated, but most choose to be certain.

Cogent enough for ya?

Skallagrim

Yes, thanks. I liked "it already is" legal better, but I'll adjust.

Should you tell Senator Al?

All I want to know is is this time going to different. Are there going to be court challenges made by the PPA or other on the underline legality of offering poker in the USA or is it all just talk. If as many claim, that offing online poker is in fact legal are we going to see a court rule on this or are there just going to plea bargains and standing issues for the PPA.

I could be wrong but its almost as though there is a pattern when it comes to this issue and fighting in court. It seems like every time there is some big 'bust" by the DOJ there is always talk about how we have good legal arguments and can fight "this" in court only to see plea bargains or decisions not to appeal.

When processors first starting going down the forum filled with 'legal types' saying this and that about how we can fight this and win, and maybe these legal arguments are correct,IDK But of course there is no big trial and everyone plea bargains. Then the talk turns to how the PPA can still fight the case only to find can't because of standing or some other issue.

Then when Russo lost in WA all the talk was how there would be an Appeal at the Federal level and many were talking about DCC and how we could win and what not. Only in the end to find there would be no Appeal

Then it was if e-checks and other payment methods were under attack then the PPA would fight the DOJ, but that went no where either.

So now everyone is back talking about the Big fight In court and proving once and for all that offing online poker is legal in the USA, but i suspect that's not going to happen either. They'll be plea bargains and some defendants wont appear before a court and the "Big" question about the legality of online poker will never get answered by a court of law. Then there will be those saying but the PPA can bring a case, unless that standing issue gets the way again.

obviously I understand that in many of these cases the PPA has legal and technical reasons for not be able to fight in court. But, if that's the case then why waste so much time worrying about the "legality" of online poker and trying to prove its legal if we're never going to get a chance to prove it in a court of law. Maybe that's because we don't have a real good case to prove the DOJ wrong, I'm not sure. Maybe instead of focusing on litigation and litigation strategies we should just focus on legislation.

I don't really know And Of course I could be way wrong. And If I am wrong I'll be glad to be proved wrong when the legality of online poker makes it way into a court of law and wins.

Am I not entitled to express my opinion? Is that a privilege to be denied Sen. AL too?

In my opinion offering online poker in the US is not in violation of Federal law. In this particular area of law all you get are opinions. It is clear the DOJ has a different opinion, but until the Courts decide the issue, it is still only an opinion.

Pay me some money and I will gladly write up this opinion in a very detailed and scholarly fashion with lots of citations and clever quotes and arguments. I will print it on the letterhead paper from my office which is a really nice paper, not cheap copy paper.

Then you go and start up a poker site with what money you have left, OK?

Skallagrim

Novahunter, we are going to see a Court rule on these issues if any of the defendants in the BF indictments choose to go to trial. Nothing else will move faster inc ourt than that case at this point.

And how long will that take? YEARS. I do not want to wait years for the return of good online poker.

So the only chance to not have to wait years for the return of poker is get a policy change, either the DOJ changes policy or the Congress changes the law.

I say we push for both with all the voices we can muster.

Leave the courts to the lawyers.

Skallagrim

I'll go point-by-point in responding to you.

Wrong. If you are going to insult someone, then you really don't appreciate anything they have done.

Wrong. "Covering their ass" meant that they decided to follow the law since they could find no loopholes to legally work around it. PartyPoker leaving US Market >>>>>> Stars and FTP committing bank fraud, in terms of maintaing trust and credibility.

Wrong (from your perspective). So the UIGEA f'ed everything up and I don't like it any more than you do. But that bill was passed 5 years ago. What have you done to help get the bill repealed? Sitting here on 2+2 and railing against the DOJ is a joke, especially considering I think the DOJ would not have moved against the sites unless the current situation had presented itself. If someone had not ratted the poker sites out about trying to buy a bank in Utah, you and I would both still be playing on Stars or FTP, but just oblivious to the nonsense that the execs at the poker sites were trying to pull behind the scenes. The Congress was "******ed" in your words by passing the UIGEA. If you have done nothing in 5 years to help repeal it, then you are just as "******ed" for accepting it.

Wrong. I never said that the only way to support or defend freedom was to serve in the Armed Forces. I would give due credit to anyone that voted in elections, wrote to his/her congressman regarding the UIGEA, or did anything else to lift a finger to try and fight the UIGEA, i.e. participate in the system that government that exists in the United States. But, that is not most most folks here are posting. If you want, I will go back and compile a response filled with qutoes from folks who say "The government is corrupt and nothing can be changed..yada yada yada". If that's your attitude, then please move somewhere else because you have no intention of ever helping yourself and have little to contribute to society here.

From the ppa website

Already 70,000 letters and emails have been sent to government officials, with thousands of phone calls also having been made condemning the actions taken by the DOJ.

That's nice. I wish more people were involved. But I am little sick of others quoting PPA statistics without ever mentioning how they participated in that particular effort. Did you happen to write one of those letters or e-mails, or possibly made a phone call yourself? Or are you just too busy surfing and quoting the information you find there?

Just about everyone who quotes efforts by the PPA also convieniently forget to mention what their own specific actions that helped contribute to the fight. Until I hear different, I assume that action on their part is zero. Go ahead and prove me wrong, and then I will give you the respect you deserve. Until then, you are just a troll.

Avoiding a "massive financial black hole" has got to be the most convincing argument for regulation that I've heard. It turns our issue into something that matters to everyone - especially lawmakers who would be otherwise averse to supporting internet gambling.

I have been on twoplustwo for 5 years now and I've never used "ignore" on a poster. BlackBeltRizen is going to be my first. Honestly guys, we have lots to do and we don't have time to put up with this arrogance and condescension. Giving people like this any attention is only distracting us from things that matter.

Go count your military medals and let us get back to our efforts to fight for poker.

You are going to hear a rare moment of libertarianism from me, but it's quite true that in order for the federal government to have the control over the banking system (including international transactions entered into by Americans) that I think is necessary to prevent the financing of crime and money laundering, the government needs to stop prohibiting things that lots of people really want to do, because otherwise they will find ways to do them and circumvent and undermine the protections. Whereas when you regulate something, you can ensure the money flows through proper channels.

So yes, the government does bring this stuff on by insisting on prohibitions on acitivites that Americans enjoy. We still, however, need the government to do the best it can to protect the integrity of the financial system, even though some stupid laws made the problem worse than it needed to be.

Slugger, you have to have the patience of Job. Between #reidbill and this mess, I'll bet I have averages three additions a day to my ignore list. I almost put Mason on ignore after that silly "Warning PPA!" post. Really, I hope everybody adheres to your post and stops this silly arguing.

That exact point really hit home with the aide that I spoke with. If the "black hole" issue is a legit concern (and I believe it to be) then we can craft some rules that allow online play while permitting the necessary financial transaction monitoring. This could be a very good point for us.

Open question(s) for people who know more about this than I:

How much do we know about the current lobbying picture right now?

Is the PPA ready to step aside or does it believe it can continue to hang around?

Was Gary Loveman's Fortune article a signal that Caesars ready to step it up and take control of the conversation on it's own or through the AGA?

Also, how much have they already done on the state and federal level?

How much does Black Friday change Caesars message?

What does Steve Wynn breaking off ties with PokerStars mean for his involvement in future legislative efforts?

Does the 2p2 community have anyone on the inside of this effort and if not, how can we get involved?