I'm not saying money trails should not be tracked. As i said in my post, regulation would have made this unnecessary and the money trails would have been "open." Sorry if I seemed short sited, I was venting on the fact that terrorism is used for everything so people go "o ok catch the terrorists!"

Instead of regulating it, they used "it could fund terrorism" to take it down when there were other options.



This is something I disagree with. Just because a "law" is a "law" does not mean it is right. It's hypocritical to enforce a "law" if it is obviously wrong and violates common sense.
Extreme example: Jim Crow laws which made it impossible for African Americans to vote. It was enforced "because it was the law." We are a country that doesn't learn from it's history and enforces "laws" that really, shouldn't be enforced.
It just gets me that there were other options in this mess and this was the one that was taken and then "terrorism" comes up like always to justify it.

lol @Skall. Just general recognition will be fine.

While it is true that the DOJ has been overcharging online poker (claiming that it violated the Wire Act, for instance), their reasons for doing so are obvious and, from their standpoint correct.

You can scoff all you want, but all sorts of crime requires shadow banking systems outside of US government regulations. Thus, it is entirely proper that the USDOJ go after ANY such banking system that is large enough and involves enough transactions. That is their job and by doing so, they reduce the ability of terrorist networks, organized crime, drug dealers, and others from finding a safe and secure conduit for their transactions. Add to that the importance of enforcing gambling laws-- including underage gaming laws, laws against cheating, and state prohibitions-- and this is an absolute no brainer from the DOJ's standpoint.

I've been reading most of the threads in the Legislation forum and one thing comes up in almost every thread:

Skallagrim posts something. Lawdude quotes it and before I even begin to read his post, I know that he's decided to disagree with something Skallagrim has posted. It's like clockwork the last week.

I really appreciate both of you being here, but let's get real Lawdude - almost every single post that Skall makes can't be wrong, can it? Is it really necessary for you to find something to disagree with no matter what he's talking about? I know you're both really smart people and I've read most of each of your posts in here in the last 10 days because I play for a living, I posted my story in the other thread and I'm desperately trying to keep up with what might become of my life here. Listening to other people who are more knowledgeable about the subject matter than I am is really helpful.

I already know that Skall will reply to your post because he thinks (or knows) he's right and you're both lawyers so you'll just go back and forth (because you think/know you're right as well) and over and over and it doesn't really help anyone here. You both do it, but from an outsider's perspective, it seems that you Lawdude, are the instigator of almost all of these arguments and it seems silly.

Just my 2 cents.

+1. Lawyers gonna be lawyers.
(Off topic but I have two relatives who are both lawyers. They can't agree on anything and will fight till the end. Just how lawyers are)

Im a bit confused about the whole "they( Congress? DOJ?) created the black hole" and "all they had to do was pass regulation" arguments. I highly doubt that the DOJ has any authority to go to congress and say "Hey man, you need to regulate poker, this is making our jobs difficult..." and I highly doubt that Kyl thought "Well, if I pass this law that means that I wont get a ****load of money from lobbyist, however due to the fact that poker sites will make fronts to launder money making a 'massive financial black hole' therefor making the DOJs jobs extraordinarily hard..."

I mean, really?

Didnt the UIGEA do EXACTLY what it was supposed to do? Shut down iPoker? I find it hard to believe that they didn't realize that the UIGEA would either A) run everyone out or B) make it possible to actually prosecute them by making it impossible for them NOT to be committing crimes. Maybe I'm wrong and/or maybe Im wrong to a degree - whether or not they "predicted" this black hole thing, its quite obvious that the plan was to cut the money off at the source and once that happened the only way to continue operating would be through illegal activity; how could it not? Im sure they didn't want such a tough fight but I'm also sure they knew it was a possibility.

I do have one quick question, for someone who has a better understanding how our gov works - how closely do the DOJ and congress actually work? Would the DOJ EVER say to the congress "woah woah woah, thats going to make things worse" etc? Just out of curiosity, not that I think it would've changed the outcome in this case. They got what they wanted.

I agree and I apologize for falling into this pattern (I did it in another thread too, prior to your post, and apologized there also). My only defense is that I am human and I have this built in trigger to respond to a persons who state an opinion like its a fact. I respect the right to have differing opinions, but not differing facts.

I plan to not ever directly respond to lawdude again. It does indeed muddy up these forums and serves no practical purpose. I will post clearly labeled facts and clearly labeled opinions, but I have found that actual dialogue is impossible.

Skallagrim

Skalla's right about a lot of things, and I either agree with him or don't post when he is. (For instance, he is quite right that poker players should emphasize the skill involved in poker, whether or not we win all the cases on that issue.)

The reason why I correct him when he is wrong is because he has very libertarian political views which (1) are shared by many in the poker community and (2) have no currency whatsoever in the political system and indeed are viewed as fringe and crazy. And he has a tendency to pretend that his libertarian views are actually the law when they are not.

The result is that he can sometimes mislead poker players into believing what they would like to believe, but which isn't actually true, about the law and what is going on.

For instance, he commonly portrays the DOJ as if they are nothing but a bunch of thugs interested in harassing the poker community. In fact, the DOJ's motives are quite clear and have to do with functions of the government (protecting us from financial crime, taxation) that Skalla doesn't believe in and therefore doesn't acknowledge.

It's very toxic for poker players who want to believe this stuff to hear it confirmed by a putative expert.

Most people in this planet are essentially glorified sheep. They get told what to do and they do it. They scare easily, are duped easily, and lack high levels of intellect. Even thinking about the words "War on Terror and War on drugs" they seem like such poor idioms but they sure sound serious to your basic human. Its about as stupid as saying "War on Water" "War on Greed" "War on Hindsight".

This isnt even about freedoms being taken away, what little that remains, its the fact the government wants their cut, they always do. Even before the UIGEA in '06 how long did you think the gov't was going to let billions of dollars funnel out of the system into the pockets of others, untaxed dollars at that.

Why do you think countries like Canada, UK, and others all still allow poker and will continue to do so forever? Could it be because they dont tax gambling winnings/poker winnings? Yes. I can still use my VISA even to deposit on Stars/FT etc! That hasnt been available in the US since 2006 lol.

Doesnt canada have to worry about money laundering? About underage gambling? About terrorists? (lol) Online gaming wrecking lives? <insert other insane reasoning> No we don't, because these are not actually REAL issues - they arnt in the USA either. Its all a guise covering the fact the gov't wants to make money.

People are shocked and whatever, but you knew it was coming soon, US gov wants its tax money and its going to get it....

And history also shows what it took to make that change. If the people speak loud enough, things happen. The problem is that most online players are not willing to do what really needs to be done. They write a couple letters. They make a couple phone calls but that is really about it. Who is rallying? No one. Who is going to DC? I bet not really anyone. While I know that there are alot of recreational players that can not take off to DC. The "pros" have nothing but time now lol. But my point again....what are people really doing.

How else were they ever going to get their money that was being continuously funneled from the american economy? Without the UIGEA the gov't would have absolutely no way to get back these billions of tax dollars at any point in time. Now they have chosen their moment to strike.

To me it seems the UIGEA was not a "stupid law" but a super-solid 5-year taxation plan that the government will always win. Any money americans deposited during this time will be collected and returned to the gov't. It sounds pretty simple and a solid plan, let the people play and the money be spent at offshore poker sites like Pokerstars, Full tilt, and UB, let them do absolutely 100% of the work then take back 10 billion of taxation dollars of the poker sites revenue, whenever they wish to shut it down (April 2011) and claim their tax winnings. Easy money!

I understand Skallagrim is who he is just as you are who you are. Yes, I take the things he states to be true since he has more knowledge about this subject than I do and you get that same respect.

I guess everything anyone says here should be taken with a grain of salt. In the last 10 days, you've basically seen everything posted. People have posted both sides of every single scenario as if it were fact. If you wanted to believe the world was going to end, there were posts for that and if you wanted to believe that this was step 1 in regulating online poker, people had well reasoned posts letting you know that was the direction this was headed. Most of it is just an educated guess. I'm fine with that. I understand that what I'm reading here is just information and that nobody knows what's going to happen going forward.

I also know that some people cannot make those distinctions and I could see where that would really cause problems, but those problems belong to the people who put too much faith in the guesses and information that strangers put on a public internet forum.

You are very conveniently forgetting that money laundering and bank fraud are federal crimes.

I was going to PM both of them and say something similar, but since AcidKnight beat me to it I will post it here.

Skall and Lawdude:

You are both very intelligent people. We benefit from having both of you here. I'm not sure what started this animosity between the two of you, but it isn't constructive. Imagine what we could get done if the two of you put your heads together rather than butting them like a couple of rams fighting over territory.

The thing is...one of you has to blink first. Skall not responding directly to lawdude is better than both of you arguing in circles, but think of the ideas that you could come up with if you could find a way to put your differences aside. Somebody has to be the bigger man here.

"Massive financial black hole" whao! It's massive, black, and a hole. It's financial too!!! It sounds so scary you really want armed people with badges to go sieze it- fill it up, make it shrink, brighten it up (i suggest they paint it green, or gold)... Whateva! They might as well take the money too, so it's not even financial anymore.

"Massive financial black hole" is also a good way to sum up the whereabouts of the collective balances and incomes of U.S. customers of the accused companies since April 15th.

Please list height and weight and we can go from there...

I'm 6'2 225 pounds if that helps.

SHIP IT! I'm 6'2" and 275.

Bigger man IMO!

thanks, OP, the DOJ sourced comment or whatever is very fair. in theory, some bank or whatever could have grown a pair of balls and said we don't think poker transfers violate UIGEA. most people here obviously believe that we didn't violate UIGEA by playing/transferring for poker, but, hiding transactions and stuff violates other laws.

The DOJ and the attorneys involved in this prosecution deserve to be called to the carpet for this prosecution. They do not get a pass. This was an orchestrated high profile prosecution designed to further political careers. It was not an effort to stop "terrorism".

Relating this to terrorism is a total cop out. A total smokescreen. There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE of terrorist ties to online poker. Are you kidding me? The mere possibility of criminals moving money around does not warrant a prosecution. If so - shut down paypal and all ewallets! Shut down online banking. Shut the internet down.

The DOJ's attorneys are not part of the all seeing eye of government. They are not omnipotent and incapable of error. They are human beings motivated by their own political and professional desires. Are they evil? No. But they took the easy path with this prosecution and focused their considerable talents and resources to fight something that was on the path to regulation anyway. They made a calculated strike to beat the poker companies to the punch so that they could get their names in the papers.

Unforgivable. We need the DOJ to use their talents and resources to root out wall street malfeasance and gas price manipulation. Not to prosecute a victimless industry fighting hard to be regulated and taxed on their own. In the end, only the average joe poker player who enjoyed coming home after work, eating dinner with the family and then grinding out a few low stakes tables to relax and keep his mind sharp at night lost.

People like you give Americans a bad name. Have you ever served your country in uniform? I spent 8 years on active duty in the military and still serve as a Reservist. Have you ever voted? Have you ever exercised any civic duty as an American? Or have you only served yourself and your own interests and needs by playing online poker?

If you don't like the politicians that represent you, then vote them out of office when you get the next opportunity. While many Congressmen are corrupt, not all are. If you don't like the system of government we have here in the United States, and put more faith in European poker sites....feel free to move. This country would be better off with a few less degens like yourself.

Well...making billions of dollars by providing an online gaming service and paying back absolutely nothing to a country that taxes gambling winnings and also happens to be where you are making the billions from is also violating laws.

Stars/FTP/UB have been violating laws since they turned online in '03/'04? The country they were raping hard just finally decided to drop the hammer and cash in their 10 billion dollar voucher.

+1. He's not he only one who is convieniently forgetting this. I would venture a guess that 80% or more of the members of this site would be happy to continue blindly supporting Stars and FTP even after a conviction in this case if that occurs.

My friend, here in the USA - people can voice their own opinion. Nothing is more American than that. If all the people who are not afraid to voice their opinion did leave this country as you suggest than you will be left in a country that no longer has the right to call itself free.

This is true. I haven't played much online since January, but I will openly admit that if anyone had come to me at some point in 2010 and said "Hmmm, your bank statement shows a transfer from FGHFDFlowersGolfBalls corporation, but that company doesn't exist, I would have flatly responded that I didn't care.

Obviously I am reconsidering that position now.