Well, that $10,000 wager cliche proves one thing. I'm talking to a child or someone with the mind of a child.

You seem to be desperately searching for an escape hatch.

I wasn't going to bother, at least not until others had a chance to chime in. But it seems this thread has just turned into some kind of e-peen waving contest, so I hope you guys don't mind if I interrupt for a minute.

Lots to unpack here. I'm not sure precisely what to respond to, since you seem to have issues with a few things. Rather than try, I'll ask you a question - what is it you'd like to see happen?

Nothing.

I already posted that as far as I was concerned this was settled and Mike Haven could lock thread. His response was you hadn't responded so he'd leave it open. You have now responded in some way. He is again welcome to lock it. Any wager between me and Homerr can be handled through PM. You as a moderator (or any other moderator) are also welcome to lock it.

I clearly said as much.

I'm not sure what the point is with this statement. I never claimed to have a significant stake in the site. That doesn't mean I don't have just as much of a right to comment on the state of affairs in a public forum where people like you attempt to mislead the uninformed with false information.

You're delusional if you don't think I have, but that's an issue with your own mind.

ROFL Quite the ego you have. The only threat you pose is that of the spreading of misinformation to the uninformed. You're just one of what is likely several accounts from somebody who has a vested interest in seeing WPN prosper, so you make pro-WPN posts, attack posters who criticize the network and post false information so that the network is seen in a more positive light to the uninformed. You're just too much of a pussy to do it from your real account.

When I see people post false information I call them out which is why I have made several responses to you in the thread. My posts are far from pointless and belligerent. I made one reply post to you when I was hammered and it was still completely coherent and accurately called you out for the misinformation you almost exclusively post.

Most of what you say is completely baseless. I can't really bother with all of it considering that I already have too much to say in response.

I haven't provided any false information whatsoever in the support thread. You've been trashing me lately because I said that Winning_TD was trolled. He WAS trolled. Just before he left the thread, he posted that he didn't understand why he was being trolled. You've trashed me because I stated that Winning_TD was helpful. He HAS been helpful. A number of players have clearly stated that Winning_TD had helped them.

Winning_TD doesn't even follow the thread anymore because it is such a disaster. We were lucky to have had any Rep in that thread at all. It's rare these days for US support threads to have Reps. We lost our Rep because of the unchecked behavior of posters in the thread. That really happened; that is not false information. I don't need to argue with you about this. I don't speak for Winning_TD; Bobo Fett and Mike Haven can simply pm Winning and ask him directly.

To question HOG has come to be considered, by some, to be sheer blasphemy in that thread. My initial contact with you was only because I dared to question HOG; it was nothing I did to directly provoke you. You decided to white knight for HOG. When I saw how little you understood about poker theory, I decided to pretty much ignore you after that. Even when you made your drunk post, I only acknowledged that you were drunk. You playing the victim is laughable considering that I've been basically ignoring you.

I want to hear what players have to say about the update. But it's only people who currently play on the site that provide any useful information. If you don't currently play on WPN your info about the update by definition is questionable.
Also I think it's clear that some posters are fine with forcing WPN out of business. But a lot of us enjoy playing on WPN and don't want our funds put at risk by those who have nothing to lose at the site.

As I've stated from my early posts on, the thread is a SUPPORT thread. Players should be able to speak freely in that thread. All the bullying and name calling shouldn't be happening, but it is. No one should be burying other people's posts with repetitious hijacking. But that is what is happening.

A group of posters (like you and ladybruin for example) tear apart anyone who even mildly questions what they have determined is reality. We saw that pretty vividly when Bobo very mildly pointed out HOG's inconsistencies; ladybruin acted like a thug saying such things as:

"And I am old school, I go all the way back to Planet Poker. And my old school ass is telling you to back off."

"Furthermore, if Bobo Fett who isn't even on the WPN battlefield makes snarky remarks directed at a chosen few posters, I’m going to continue to rip him a new one."

Does ladybruin currently play on the "WPN battlefield"? When I asked him/her, he/she didn't say yes; he/she just went into meltdown mode.

But the bottom line is that Bobo, myself, or anyone else shouldn't be talked to like that in a support thread. A support thread should have open discussions. People shouldn't be subjected to bullying and thuggery which is exactly what a small handful of posters have been doing. Posters also shouldn't be baselessly accused of running bot rings simply because they question the great and all powerful wizard behind the curtain.

Furthermore, you shouldn't be baselessly accusing me of running some kind of forum bot ring as a cheap and easy way of discrediting everyone in that thread who is at all critical of you, ladybruin, or HOG.

I couldn't care less with what HOG writes (even though I don't believe a lot of things he writes). My problem with HOG and a few other posters is that they are essentially overwriting other things being discussed in the Support thread.

BOBO FETT and MIKE HAVEN: If my post hasn't already put you to sleep, please read this last paragraph.
From the beginning of my posts, I've discussed a few possible solutions. A new (possibly temporary) thread could be started solely to discuss the WPN update. A separate lightly regulated thread could be started to solely discuss bots and related subjects. Or the moderators could more aggressively hand out infractions in the present Support thread.

You made an account right around the time that ACR had a huge ****ing problem. Are you paid by ACR?






Look Winning TD didn't get trolled out of the ACR thread, he quit on his own volition. Also out of the entirety of the WPN team he was the only one that listened to player's complaints and is really the reason why he quit. 1 man taking on the entire complaint department and then quitting when the company goes to **** seems to makes sense to me. As far as I'm concerned the dude was 1 man trying to stop a sinking ship. At the end of the day he was WPN support. It's obvious that WPN does not give a **** about anyone playing in their games.

Are you paid by an ACR competitor that is trying to increase its player pool?

See, we can both play that game. I've already replied to that silly accusation.


He was trolled out of the thread. He posted that he didn't understand why he was being trolled just before he left the thread.

A large part of the harassment toward Winning_TD was perpetuated by HOG. Just look at the message he sent HOG; Winning made it pretty clear how he felt.

Your above post is speculation not proven fact. Keep that in mind.

Sir Huntington's 2+2 account is over a decade old. MCAChitown's account is old too. So is mine. Homerr what is your account listed as? A 5 month old newbie account (err I mean gimmick account) who has posted on only one topic on 2+2. D'OH! Three different old (as in over a decade old each) 2+2 accounts have called you nothing but a WPN shill. You've done nothing but embarrass yourself and WPN. WPN isn't going to fake their way out of their bot problems or rewards/rb problems or site crash problems or any other problems with shill accounts. WPN is truly in major trouble when the only one defending them in a gimmick account that was created at the time of the software update. This has made for good popcorn reading. And my guess is that many reasonable people reading this thread can see through the gimmick account.

This is classic 2+2 across virtually every sub-forum. A newbie gimmick account trolls an important topic and gets handed their hat by some of the oldest accounts on 2+2.

There is nothing wrong whatsoever with using a new account. If using an old account has imparted as much wisdom on you as you claim, you'd already have known that.

Your Us vs Them stances belies a poster who needs to cling to cult tactics to make his points. It shows weakness not strength. You are only one poster just like the rest of us. Your reliance on "we" and "us" is only of importance in your own mind.

It's hilarious that you're citing MCACitown as having one of the older accounts. His 1970 join date was long before 2+2 even existed, it was long before the Internet existed, and it was long before desktop computers even existed. By your criteria though MCAC must be the most brilliant and credible poster in the world.

When you tried to kick Bobo Fett out of the Support thread, you repetitively did it on the basis that he isn't one of us because he doesn't play on WPN. Some people fall for that type of thinking; I'm not one of those people. Nevertheless, you made a shallow and transparent attempt to co-opt me into your mutiny when you wrote this to Bobo Fett:

But I didn't take the bait. When I didn't play along, I quickly became one of "them". The next day you wrote this paranoid post:

You went right into cult leader mode and tried to establish that I was some kind of infiltrator. And as you always do, you tried to rally 2+2 members behind you. So, now you've once again continued that attack in your most recent post.

Of course, stating that Winning_TD has been helpful is against cult doctrine which makes me the enemy and subjects me to your crazy accusations.

Your accusation that I'm a WPN shill is absurd on its surface considering that over the course of the last 4 months I've only posted about 20 posts in that thread. And most of my posts have been about cleaning up the thread so those of us who currently play on WPN can figure out what is happening with the update. My cash games have been largely trouble free but I'm not about to venture into tournaments or Blitz until I know things have improved.

You can write as many illogical posts as you like, but you can’t outrun the truth. You have been weighed, measured and found by several old 2+2 accounts to be nothing but a newbie gimmick shill account. And the first reason old 2+2 accounts even reply to gimmick accounts is to give 2+2 readers a proper perspective as to the shills lies, distortions and attempts to revise history. The second reason old 2+2 accounts even reply to gimmick accounts is to try and stop the cancer before it spreads.

2+2 gimmick shill accounts are a virus that has plagued every part of this web site. And to be clear, I am not talking about people having a new account or even multiple accounts. At some point every 2+2 account was only a month old, nor is there anything against having multiple accounts. I am talking about the very few accounts that were created for the specific purpose of shilling an agenda through lies. Three old 2+2 accounts have read your posts and loudly called bullcrap on your posts. The date of your account creation which matches a WPN event has been pointed out. The limit scope/topics of your participation on 2+2 has been pointed out. Shill and shill.

I like to cover my bases. A couple times I offered to have this thread closed. I have also tried to limit you gimmick account in this thread. But I am also very happy having this thread stay open. And the location of this thread is fine with me. Spread “the problems with WPN” threads to every corner of 2+2. The problems with WPN instead of being limited to one thread in one sub-forum has now been spred to three sub-forums, that means only 13 more sub-forums to go. No matter the sub-forums people read, they need to know that WPN has bot problems. WPN has rewards/rakeback problems. WPN has a 5 month+ long continuing software problem. WPN crashes every week. And the list goes on, but I’ll end it with the warning that WPN has representatives and WPN loyalist that create 2+2 gimmick shills accounts in an attempt to spread lies, distortions and revise history. Thankfully multiple long standing 2+2 accounts have called out the bullcrap. WPN is shown in a bad light with every gimmick shill post you make. It is a case of you being too stupid to know how stupid you are. I wisely covered my ass and said lock this thread up. But I am happy to have this thread open and to have your gimmick WPN shill account actually do the exact opposite of what you had hoped.

You still think that you are running 2+2. As soon as you get 2 people to agree with your absurd claims, whatever it is you want to believe becomes an irrefutable fact. As I've already said, you're just someone with a cult mentality.

If you knew anything at all, you'd know that there is absolutely nothing wrong with gimmick accounts. There is no 2+2 hierarchy where posts made by older accounts carry more weight than newer accounts. You certainly didn't give Bobo's posts any greater weight when you ordered him to stop commenting in the Support thread. But of course, you claimed that Bobo couldn't comment on WPN because he didn't play there so therefore had nothing at risk. But then when I pointed out that you also don't play there and don't have anything at risk, all of a sudden all that mattered was how long ago you started your account there and how many hands you've played. Your rationales are all over the place.

I'm not associated with WPN in any way whatsoever. Believe me, if I did work for WPN you wouldn't have an account there. now or ever.

False. I often back up what I say with quotes and links. Feel free to point out something I've posted that is baseless and I will back it up with facts.

As far as I can tell you responded to all it.

False.

True.

It's the internet.

Even if he made a one off comment like that it doesn't mean that was the definitive reason he stopped posting.

I said it before, but I'll say it again...There was very little actual trolling of Winning_TD. Most of what you probably consider trolling was legitimate and warranted criticism of the issues brought forth due to a poorly executed software change.

False. That is not the reason I "trashed you" at all. I've stated on more than one occasion that he seemed to be very helpful.

False. I've seen his name and active status even since he's stopped posting in the thread. He might not post under his real name, but he has certainly been seen reading the thread.

He stated it was too much effort for him to keep up with, respond and answer for all of the negative criticism in his second to last post in that thread. That's nobody's fault here. It's the fault of the company he works for and his inability to deal with the never ending criticism his company deserves.

I wouldn't want to deal with it either. Who would? Though I would certainly accept the legitimacy of the criticism and expect that there would be tons of negative feedback until the site was functioning at least as well as it was prior to the new software being implemented.

False. It was because you stated false information.

While I respect HOG's diligent work and effort to enlighten the community about the bot situation on the WPN, I don't look up to him as some forum deity. In fact, I often agree with Bobo's criticism of his posting style at times.

The irony in this statement is rich. You looked at some micro to mid-stake population exploiting bot account statistics and stated that they were playing a GTO strategy or something along those lines. If you understand anything about game theory, and anything about these bots, then you'd realize how ridiculous that comment was. It was comically bad. I'll post it below.

That's just flat out WRONG. I'd love to see the poker books and leak-finder software telling you that it's correct to C-Bet an absurdly high amount in multiway pots, and definitely more than you do in HU pots. Please show me where you've read that. LOL

I'm not sure what you mean by playing the victim. I think you've misread something.

I'd be happy for you to continue ignoring me. My posts aren't for you. They're for anybody who might see your posts and take them as facts.

I can understand that. It's not like I'm in there spreading false information about what's happening. If I do comment it's usually on the reality of the situation in a general sense. More often if I'm posting in there I'm either answering a question that was posted or correcting misinformation from posters like you.

If the site goes out of business it will be because of the extreme incompetence of the WPN's management and not because of what some posters say on a forum.

I certainly don't fit the description of what you're describing.

Report the posts and/or speak with the mods. This particular forum is meant for discussion about how the site is run.

If by tear apart you mean correct with facts, then sure. I'm only speaking on my behalf.

That seems like something between ladybruin and Bobo so I'll them hash it out, if they desire.

I agree.

Report the posts and speak with the mods.

I think people mostly say that in jest. I'm lost though, who is the wizard behind the curtain?

It's clear that you have multiple accounts, you've stated as much. I don't know that I've accused many other people of that. I never said anything about you having a forum bot ring.

He knows what he's talking about when it comes to the cash game bots. Many online regs who've been around for a while could back up what he's saying about that. When he talks about the rakeback/rewards program, software issues or the site's liquidity I don't comment since I don't have to deal with any of that.

I think that's a fair criticism. You could speak with the mods, but I believe Bobo has stated similar sentiments in the thread. He usually tells HOG to dial it back when he overdoes it.

I think you'll find that a separate thread has already been created in the NVG forum.

Bots and player funds misappropriation on WPN

In the too stupid to understand how stupid you are department, you just confirmed one of HOG's complaints that he has not received his past rewards/rb or help as a petty vendetta against him.

I love you dude. Your posts are a goldmine of insight into WPN and a cautionary tale to anyone thinking of playing there.

@MCAChiTown:

You have way too much time on your hands. I'm not about to spend my day categorically responding to your misleading and sometimes outright false statements. I'll just make a few points.

Hog talks a lot about how he can almost instantly spot bots but gets vague when asked how. Looking at Cbets or 3bets for the answer is absurdly overly simplistic. Also, clearly WPN and HOG have a disagreement on how many points are owed but HOG hasn't shown his own calculations, I can guess why.


You say Winning_TD wasn't trolled yet when I point out that Winning posted, "I don't quite understand why i still get trolled here.", you simply dismiss it as a one off comment. I guess you didn't notice that he left soon after. And you must have missed the message Winning_TD sent HOG that HOG posted. Winning_TD clearly had more than enough. Maybe HOG should show us the nonsense he sent Winning that elicited that response from Winning.

Regarding ladybruin's obsession with my account: I retired my original account years ago. This is my only active account. Also HOG opened his account just 7 or 8 months before I opened mine; haven't seen any criticism about that.

I think it's pretty clear that WPN's rewards system attracts bots. The Beast in particular has long outlived its usefulness. Yet the posters who complain about bots defend keeping the Beast. HOG in particular wants to keep the Beast. HOG is part of the problem.

I'm not about to get into a bot/stat debate. But I stand by what I said despite that you twisted and misinterpreted what I said.

The NVG forum isn't where players go to discuss site updates. Also pretty much anything goes in the NVG forum; that's exactly what we don't need.

The wizard behind the curtain is HOG.

Thank-you for calling me stupid. Projection is the sincerest form of flattery.

Smart people draw their conclusions through intellectual rigor. You, on the other hand, draw your conclusions through a mishmash of unsupported allegations. Then you have the gullible follow you down that rabbit hole.

@Homerr Could you please state your exact positions, because it looks an awful like you are claiming that A) bots aren't really a problem on WPN and B) that issues like players receiving no or incorrect rakeback also isn't a major problem. Both positions are absurd regardless of how eloquently you package the delivery and attempt to demonize those who know that both issues (and many more, like weekly crashes, funds getting "stuck", etc.) are major issues for a poker site.

My position is that bots are a problem on probably all the sites but more so on WPN because of its rewards system. I think that the only reason the Beast is still on the site is because the CEO is an adrenaline junky and that we are all paying for his habit. We need to get rid of the Beast.

And I don't believe a whole lot of what HOG writes. He doesn't show his work. He puts on a big show that diverts from the fact that there is very little real substance.

I haven't spoken whatsoever about rakeback or points other than to recently say that HOG has made no attempt to show that his numbers are accurate. It seems odd to me with all the thousands and thousands of words he's written that he doesn't show exactly how he has come to his numbers so we can honestly appraise his claims. All we can assume is that HOGs numbers and WPN's numbers probably don't match. The only reason that HOG's point thing bothers me at all is because he brings it up over and over and over and over and over again.

You don't seem to see that I haven't done much posting one way or the other about WPN or the problems with the update (despite ladybruin's inflammatory posts). My issue has been with the problems with the 2+2 Support thread.

You probably don't have a clear idea of my positions because I don't have strong positions on many of the issues you mention since I've only been playing NL cash games which currently don't seem to have a fraction of the problems that the PLO games and tournaments (and maybe Blitz) have. I'd like to play other games but the Support thread has been commandeered by a few posters, some of whom don't even play on WPN, making it difficult to get current balanced information.

I've criticized HOG for good reason but I haven't demonized him. Winning_TD, Bobo Fett and myself are the ones who have gotten demonized by ladybruin.

I've been called a cult leader along with other stuff I don't feel like multi-quoting. Can I claim I've been demonized by a newbie WPN gimmick petty shill account?

Anything I've said, I've said on a 2+2 account that is over 11 years old and has over 1,400 posts, posting on more than one topic or thread.

I wish you would multi-quote because my assertion that you are behaving like a cult leader wannabe can't be emphasized enough. I have never ever seen anyone on 2+2 so self-deluded as to believe that the join date of his account gives him a special voice and special privileges even to the crazy extent that your voice supercedes that of the moderator.

All forums are based on the principle of one poster = one voice. Truth be known, your lies are still lies even if you can get a couple gullible people to go along with you. My assertion that you have been behaving like a cult leader in this forum is an accurate, justifiable, and a necessary point to make. It's an accurate portrayal, not demonization.

On the other hand, your flat out lies that I work for WPN is demonization.

Homerr, this demonizing thing you brought up is interesting, let’s go there. There are two possibilities. Possibility #1 is that you aren’t a WPN gimmick petty shill account. (your position). Possibility #2 is that you are a WPN gimmick petty shill account (my position and others in this thread). By your own words, you’ve stated that calling you a WPN gimmick shill account is demonizing you. Let’s flip this around to the affirmative. IF you are a WPN gimmick petty shill account, THEN you are a dastardly demon. But instead of saying you are a demon, let’s just say you are a dick.

I think you are a dick. But let’s create a poll. My over 10 years of posting on 2+2 says you are a WPN gimmick petty shill posting false information about Winning_TD and WPN. MCAChiTown an over 10 poster on 2+2 in post #29 says you are a shill posting false information. Sir Huntington an over 10 year poster on 2+2 in post #31 called you a shill posting false information. So the tally so far as to whether you are a WPN gimmick petty shill dick is 3 to 1 that you are. But seniority is a real thing, the tally needs to be adjusted. Anyone that has been posting on 2+2 for over a decade should get a double-vote. Anyone posting on 2+2 for less than a decade gets a single-vote. Therefore the current tally is 6 to 1 that you are a WPN gimmick petty shilling dick posting false information. But let’s get this poll moving forward. This thread has had over 1,000 views. Obviously some of those views are multiple views by the same people, but it is reasonable to think there are many eyes on this thread. Let’s poll. Anyone is welcome to vote. But let’s put the cutoff to being able to vote as an account created before November 2019 (I’d hate to think Homerr the WPN gimmick petty shill would create a whole bunch of accounts in an attempt to stop this from showing he is a dick).

Let’s flesh this out. The tally current stands at 6 to 1 that Homerr is a dick. What do you think? Is Homerr a WPN gimmick petty shill account?

@ladybruin: What is wrong with you? That post was not written by a sane adult.

Deflection won't save you. The tally is currently 6 to 1 that you are a...

ladybruin

It appears to me that after your 11 years of experience in these forums you still don't know how to use some of the basic tools here. I won't demonise you for this, but I would say it makes it far easier for readers to follow your argument if you do include relevant quotes and references in your posts.

To multi-quote, click on the ''+ sign at the bottom right of the relevant posts, then click on Post Reply at the bottom left of the page of posts. Edit the posts in the Reply window, as necessary. (See my multi-quotes, above.)

To refer to an individual post by way of a link, you can click on the number of the post, top right, which will open a single-post window. Then copy/paste the url of that single-post into your Reply.

If these instructions are not clear to you, please feel free to PM me, and I'll try again, privately. (I'm posting this in the open forum, as it may benefit some noobs, as well.)

Thank you for your compliance.

Mike Havven it appears that you are wrong. In your 17 years on 2+2 you don't seem to have the basics down if when to stay out on the way. You interjecting yourself at this particular point was beyond irresponsible. But I won't demonize you.

I chose to use 6 words instead of multi-quote several posts. And in being step ahead of you, one of the reasons I did that is because Homerr said that MCAChitown had too much time on his hands with his 20+ multi-quoting/multi-responses and that Homerr wasn't going to even try to respond. Mike if you had been doing a better job of following the thread you would understand that simple fact that less can be more. But again, I won't demonize you. Furthermore, it wasn't a first reference to MCA or Sir Huntington but a refresher that made multi-quoting redundant.

Also Mike Haven, I prefer that men be men and directly, not indirectly, make insults

I am offended by and do not appreciate your unnecessary insults of me for my attempt to assist you, (and, probably, others), and I have temp-banned you for three days, as my direct response.