This is something you should be able to easily look up on your own (wikipedia lists the diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia and also has an article on psychosis). If you give it a real try and still can not differentiate between psychosis and schizophrenia, then I'd be happy to clarify.

If you are hearing voices and actually think they are from other people, then you have lost touch with reality and are psychotic. If you are hearing voices that you know are coming from yourself, then you do not qualify as mentally ill on the basis of 'hearing voices.' You can still very well be mentally ill, as I've already said. That is, having homicidal thoughts (not auditory hallucinations) is consistent with both being mentally ill and mentally healthy. Some people who kill other people do not have mental illness.

I'm having some trouble understanding you. Are you saying that I can not understand any specific mental illness unless I can experience it? At some level, you are correct, but with exposure to many patients coupled with book learning (to take from the experiences of the many before me) I can gain enough of an understanding to be helpful to the patient. It's not like I'm expecting patients to come right out of the textbooks; I am capable of abstract thought.

I don't see what's hypocritical about what I've said. I appealed to myself as an authority not to end all discussion, but because it was clear you lacked the textbook knowledge to answer the textbook question. Yes, other factors come into play when evaluating a patient and all, but a textbook is all you need to differentiate between the examples here of command auditory hallucinations and an inner dialogue.

How can we understand the mind of another? All we get are behaviors and speech. We look at both and ask questions to assess the thinking process, all as attempts to get an idea of the underlying functioning of the mind/brain.

Seems like as above, you imagine psychiatrists as people who hold patients to rigid standards defined by textbooks, but this really isn't the case.

Parkinson's disease is not a mental illness.

Really? I would think that misdiagnosing the depressed patient would be worse. The real diagnosis helps to inform treatment, helps with research, and can provide the patient with some answers. It's not usually so terrible.

Is it really up for debate that someone who hears voices and doesn't realize they're coming from his own head is less sane than someone who hears voices but knows they're coming from his own mind?

I don't really see how you can dispute this.

Gansta, actually learned some from that post, will reply at some point in the week. I have recently learned though what I mean by the two types of illness.. as one of my placements I have recently started working has two types of patients.

organic mental illnesses (alzheimers, parkinsons,(yes parkinsons affects the brain))
and functional illnesses (depression, dementia)

Some are defined by behavioural symptoms and some are diagnosed by physical symptoms, Of course they both cross over to each other. But, the fact that I could fake a functional mental illness, and I believe I could also cause myself to be diagnosed and to actually 'contract' for some mental illnesses that have no apparent organic causes, shows alot of problems in text book diagnosis and treatment. I am looking at the diagnosis of skitzo in wiki, and they are all behavioural criteria


If you put it like that then yes. But plenty of religious people pray and talk to god. Its like, where do you put the line, in, knowing if they are from your head or not. If they believe another person is saaying it then fine, but I can ask something in my mind and I really haven't the foggiest where the answer comes from, it would be another 'me'. So, what is the difference in having more than one 'me' and in another perosn a 'me' and a 'someone else' --- the thing is this is just language, label, superficial, interpretation of a thought process.

Fishpoop yo. It takes a special talent to say nothing, yet be wrong about everything.

I see where you're going here, but you're still making factual errors. Parkinson's disease, despite affecting the brain, is not a form of mental illness. I am literally reading right now, between posting here, about Parkinson's disease in a neurology textbook for psychiatrists.

Also, Alzheimer's disease is a form of dementia, so putting AD in one category and dementia in another seems odd.

Well Parkinson's and AD are also fakeable. Short of slicing up your brain and looking at it under a microscope (which we have trouble doing while keeping you alive), we don't really have objective tests for them. In medicine overall, there are numerous illnesses/disorders that diagnosed clinically (that is, based just on history and physical exam, without any objective measures such as labs or imaging). I don't see how these present a problem with learning from a textbook -- you need a mix of textbook and clinical knowledge to be a good doctor, and neglecting either would be bad.

Ok, well I have a copy of the DSM in front of me. To get the diagnosis, you must meet 2 or more of the following (with an unimportant exception):

1) delusions. Not a behavior, though can be noted due to behaviors.

2) hallucinations. Not a behavior, though can be noted due to behaviors.

3) disorganized speech. Is speech a behavior? Even if you really want to say yes, recognizing that it's disorganized is you recognizing things about the underlying thought process/mind.

4) disorganized or catatonic behavior. Yes, this one is behavioral.

5) negative symptoms. Some of these are behavioral, some relate to mood.

I'm not going to verify that wiki has these correct criteria, but they're clearly not all behavioral criteria.

The difference, as I've said before, is that if you recognize that the voice really is coming from yourself, then you are, at least wrt the voice, still in touch with reality. Thinking the voice is coming from an external source indicates that you aren't properly differentiating reality from fantasy.

The difference is more than language, though. I've never personally experienced auditory hallucinations, but I'm pretty sure that they're an entirely different matter than merely coming up with an answer to a question out of nowhere.

When you ask yourself a question and get an answer, do you actually hear it as an external sound? And if you do, do you believe that the sound is completely separate from your own mind? That is my understanding of what a genuine auditory hallucination is like.

Dementia is the like, loss of brain function (a syndrome?). Alzheimers is a physical cause of dementia- a disease. right?

e: oh and maybe parkinsons is not a mental illness but it certainly causes it most the time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkins...uropsychiatric



It's a problem, because you don't actually know what it is, You are guessing from behaviour. Which is fine in general. What I was trying to get at was- a very healthy brain could health very unhealthy belief or thought structures (derived from ether or environment) . So where you can't understand the biology, meds are going to be very hit and miss, the meds would kind of force the thought structures to change- by using biology/chemistry to change the mind rather than the other way round. I'm talking bi polar and skitzo. I think my theory is good but I can't really apply it or argue for it fully until I know more.


These are all behaviours, for how does a 3rd person know if someone is actually hallucinating or not? I would put speech into behaviour. I think you could diagnose yourself only for certain (today)



I get it now, when you said external source I wasn't thinking it was like you are hearing someone talk that is behind you or something- but a split of the mind- egos-

yh, I feel dumb, so its like hearing something normally in your ears. That would be ****ing creepy

So am I understanding properly that you have a theory about schizophrenia, but up until now you didn't know what auditory hallucinations, a symptom that occurs in a majority (maybe 60-75%) of schizophrenics, were?

I hope you can see why this is so frustrating.

Not about skitzophrenia specifically, just deception/illusion and thought structures/beliefs relating to mental illness. I'm pretty sure I've had some episodes myself when I was younger but I am very self aware person. I did state I don't know enough yet so no need to find it frustrating.

Well its a bit weird, because all vision is 'imagined', and visual hallucinations would be hard to distinct from vision... There are optical illusions where we 'hallucinate' right? with the sound I had not pictured that it comes from your ears and seems to come from outside the mind- I just thought it was an inner voice that the person claims they can't control, is someone else, or think they are possessed or something along those lines. The ears aren't vibrating, do they actually appear from the ears? It's very strange. It makes me think because headphones can be used as microphones.

Anyway I'll get round to schizophrenia eventually want to get more knowledgeable on dementia first.

Illusions are different than hallucinations.

I don't know what these sentences mean.

See, it's one thing to acknowledge that you have more to learn. It's a good thing, and it's true of all of us. But it's another thing to say it without showing that you mean it. Your lack of knowledge on this subject matter hasn't stopped you from formulating ideas that seem to be based on your incorrect assumptions. And I had to tell you twice or so that Parkinson's disease isn't a mental illness before you finally looked it up.

This is why it's frustrating. You seem more interested in proving your ideas correct than actually learning something. I keep seeing glimpses of hope, but those always fade away.

Migraine aura (scintillating scotoma, etc) is a significant visual hallucination, but there's no doubt about whether or not all the flashing lights you see are real external flashing lights.

Specific to visual, on a level they are the same, if not they are the same but differ in whatever failsafes there are. Both 'appear' and with focus both can be removed. Both can be imagined. But I've had this argument before, people don't believe me when I say I can control my sight, as in make a cup disappear (its not disappearing I'm just putting something in front of it). Have you ever hallucinated?

I read once that people who see more in tangled random squiggle drawings are more likely to believe and see ghosts/have an alien abduction.




why do I have parkinsons patients at the mental health clinic? Why does wikipedia have a section on the psychiatric health effects. I know its not a mental illness in a strict textbook sense. It does effect the brain though and obviously causes mental problems.

I'm not interested in proving them in this forum, I mention them in the hope that someone takes it further using their knowledge.

Stepping in to give gangsta a break...

Hallucinations cannot be removed by effort. They arise within the old noggin. It is seeing something that is not there at all. Think of looking at a wall and seeing a monster. Not thinking about a monster, not it reminding you of a monster, actually seeing a monster. That would be a hallucination.

Illusions are just tricks that can be played on the eye.

I'm sure gangsta has not. I have during some psychopharmalogical experiments (a wonderful reason to go into experimental/clinical neuropsychology).

Everyone controls their sight. What you can do is just an interesting parlor trick. Much like juggling, it takes a bit of practice but doesn't pay well.

Quite the non-sequitor, but that seems likely.

Because dealing with parkinson's disease sucks.

I sometimes get upset when I have a stomach ache. Is a stomach ache a psychiatric disorder?

You'd be better off looking for disconfirming evidence. It makes what you say more sensible and more likely to be listened to. What you succeed in doing when you do otherwise is make people dismiss your ideas easily.

Thanks, though for some reason I feel like posting anyway.

This is exactly the problem I just described. You put forth an idea and I told you it was wrong. Instead of then doing even a minimal amount of research to learn what the relevant terms mean, you continue to assert your idea as true despite the fact that you still don't know what you're talking about.

Strokes affect the brain and obviously cause mental problems. Strokes are not mental illness.

But this still misses the point I was making -- you have errors all over all your posts, and every time I correct them you resist or come up with more errors. This will never end until you're finally willing to learn something.

Regarding hallucinations, show me the evidence that they cannot be controlled as a whole. When does a controllable delusion of imagination turn into a hallucination? THis is why sound and vision is so weird. Because if the ears are apparently vibrating opposed to inner mind auditory creation- then it is easy enough to distinct these, but with vision it has to be impossible as vision is imagined. Its a weird subject to me I can't wrap my head around it. Everything is thought based or not?

Regarding strokes, I don't see how they cannot be defined as a mental illness, they involve the brain getting damaged and its functioning is worsened- including cognition. I'm having difficulty in determining what makes a mental illness a mental illness.

Regarding parkinsons, here are some quotes I just got from some articles

As well as affecting movement, Parkinson's often affects the way people think and feel. About two-thirds of people with Parkinson's experience mental health problems at some point during the course of their condition.

Patients with Parkinson's disease are known to exhibit slowed movements and tremors, but one aspect of their condition is often overlooked: cognitive impairment.



Is it classified that alzheimers is a mental illness but not parkinsons? There will be a small period of time where alzheimers is physically effecting the body(brain) but has not yet effected mental health. If alzheimers is not a mental illness then I would agree parkinsons is not a mental ilness. It is become apparent that a mental illness is something which has behavioural symptons, the physical causes are just regular physical disease. It is appearing that a good way for me to know if something is a mental illness is to ask myself, could I fake it? I can't fake a broken arm as it would be easy enough to test. You can see/hear/touch/smell the body and behaviour, but you can't see any other mind than your own. I think I'm much better than the average person at picturing/understanding someone else's mind and manipulating others/own minds.

I think my optical illusion example- is valid. If people are seeing illusions in squiggles- similar to seeing a triangle in that triangle illusion, and with the information that these people are more likely to see ghosts- shows they are related.

And Gansta, I've always learned best by arguing. And stop critising my knowledge when I have stated and you have stated that I don't know so much.

edit: btw a funny story I heard today, was that someone I work with had a patient once who kept seeing 'black people' around her flat. She was on anti psychotics for 2 years until one day a community nurse was with her, and out of no where a black drug dealer came out of a flap in the ceiling form the flat upstairs- which he was using to escape his flat form police ect

Why the **** do you think a scintillating scotoma is a delusion of imagination (or a delusion at all, not that there's any chance you actually know what the **** that word means) or controllable?

calm down

I never mentioned anything about scotoma and don't even know about them. SO I quickly read some and its familiar because I have read about it long ago. They seem similar to hallucinations but are also distinct, they aren't dream like, from the images I see depicting them they look like 'damage', rather than thought structure-concept-belief-they don't represent anything and they aren't dreamed, or dreamable. Do they occur when the eyes are closed? It seems closer to being colour blind. Hallucinations will be in a different part of the brain or at least use a memory/imaginative part with the visual part.

Maybe they can be controlled btw... I can relieve my headaches so why not this.. maybe there are cognitive teqniques to reduce the lifespan of one of these happenings?

Also that reminds me about auditory hallucinations, can the person confirm they aren't external by blocking their ears?

I talked about them earlier ITT refuting another one of your nonsense arguments (that all hallucinations were delusions).

Perhaps you could have also bothered to read what a hallucination is before blabbering on about them. Hint: perception in the absence of a stimulus. Not any mumbo-bull**** about "dreamable".

Yes, the ring of light stays if you close your eyes.

I have no idea what you mean by a "controllable delusion of imagination." I think it is a nonsensical phrase. Also, if you don't mind, I've been trying to figure it out for a while, but what is your primary language?

In general, auditory and visual hallucinations are not produced by the ears or the eyes, but instead in the areas of the brain that normally deal with hearing and vision.

I would bet a substantial amount, without first checking, that you can not find an even half-reputable source that will state that a stroke is a mental illness.

Dementia is somewhat of a gray zone between mental illness and neurological disorder, though normally neurology claims it. Overall, defining mental illness is tough, especially if trying to keep neurology from stealing the disease. It almost seems that once the physiology is discovered, the disease becomes classified as neurological instead of psychiatric, but this doesn't exactly seem reasonable to me. We do, after all, believe that psychiatric diseases have neurological bases.

These links may be of interest: http://science.education.nih.gov/sup...o-mental-a.htm

http://neuroskeptic.blogspot.com/201...sychiatry.html

http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevision...n.aspx?rid=465

How does that help us with Parkinson's and strokes? Well a stroke is definitely damage to neurons caused by either a lack of blood flow or bleeding. This can be associated with psychiatric symptoms depending on where it is, and can cause a depression. Still, everyone puts it in the neurology field since we have this precise neuronal damage. Having associated psychiatric symptoms doesn't make it a psychiatric disease overall.

Parkinson's is similar in that we know what damage is occurring in what neurons in the brain. Also, it is defined and diagnosed on the basis of motor issues, not psychiatric issues. It often eventually comes with associated psychiatric issues, but that doesn't make it a primary psychiatric disorder.

I have a shoulder injury (which I believe to not be psychological), officially diagnosed as biceps tendopathy. There is no blood test for this. Ultrasound and MRI show no abnormalities. I could fake the pain and drooping shoulder if I wanted to. There are other fakeable medical issues as well, so this does not seem like a good metric to me.

You can ask questions and show an interest in learning the answers, but you instead have chosen to try to prove yourself right in the face of contradictory information. Instead of asking why something is as it is, you come up with reasons why you are correct instead. This isn't productive here, and certainly isn't productive in person either.

I believe wiki calls this the Martha Mitchell effect, but no one I talk to ever seems to have heard of this name (well, they might know who the person is, but never the effect).

Well its a bit weird, because all vision is 'imagined', and visual hallucinations would be hard to distinct from vision...

this is what you quoted when you said that

I said this later on on a level they are the same,

on a level this scintillating blabla is the same as a 'mainstream' visual hallucination but it is clearly separate as it has nothing to do with alot of things I already went through.



I never claimed it was not a hallucination. Please quote me so I know what you are talking about. Actually don't bother I don't think our conversation is compatible and I cba resisting tilt

And visual hallucinations in mental ilness- do they stay when the eyes are closed? I'm still having trouble understanding what an auditory hallucination is as I've never had one. I think I've had touch and sight but never auditory in the sense it is coming from my ears.

1) Have someone talk to you.

2) Pretend they weren't really there.

There, accomplished in 2 easy steps.

That's what I imagined it to be, understanding it is totally different.

is it ever random **** like an untuned radio? Is it always based upon some kind of learned concept such as a word or a noise that can be associated with something?

Thinking about it I remember I've heard like a very very faint and high pitched noise and I'm never sure where it comes from.

It can be anything. Yesterday my patient told me her migraines were associated with hallucinated loud yelling in her ear (this was also accompanied by visual hallucination).

is this some kind of stephen king IT level?

must be hence spoiler

:|

if this **** is as real as they make it out to be it really does make me question certain things about reality.