That's only part of it. Variations from the norm are perfectly acceptable. But when the functioning is different and causing harm, then we think that's something that isn't as it should be.

I mean, how do we define hypertension? or hyperlipidemia? or diabetes?

For some people, sure, the label seems to do harm. But for others, it seems to help -- allows them to give a name to their distressing feelings, helps them feel not alone because they can find others with the same label. It also helps those helping the person because we can use a consistent label to help direct treatment.

We don't use the disease label maliciously. The intent is actually good. I don't see what pharma has to do with this as they aren't the ones deciding what a disease is (despite some trying to claim otherwise), and even if they are they aren't the ones diagnosing people.

I've thought about what being dead would be like, but as far as I can remember I've never thought about suicide or what that would be like. I'm 26.

That sounds impossible

OMG I don't exist!

You never read a book or watched a movie in which a character kills himself and thought what it might be like to make such a decision? ... you've yet to read Camus?

I've read The Stranger, but it was long ago. I'm a psychiatrist (well, for less than a year so far, but...), so I see real people all the time who want to and have tried to kill themselves, but it hasn't made me wonder about doing it myself.

I don't think Ryan was saying that everybody experiences wanting to kill themselves at one time or another, but I can't believe that you've never thought about what it would be like to be a person that wanted to kill themselves, in a hypothetical or empathetic way.

So we're back to the beginning where I surprise you.

That's the most abnormal thing I've ever heard, are you a robot? I would be less surprised if a poor person never thinks about having money.

Close. I'm not claiming to be normal, but I'm pretty sure I'm being truthful.

Ganstaman probably just does not remember much about his thoughts.

To op, there is not much to add than healthy people commiting suicidde have a mental ilness by default...

of course

I challenge someone to come up with a suicide that wasn't the result of an acute or even chronic mental ilness.

The only grey bit is the religious stuff, maybe we are all delusional and some aren't.

I suppose mentally ill is tooo subjective. I think suicide attempt is a solid tick box though.

I was more talking about suicide lol. Maybe im unique but the earliest memory I have about hearing about christianity and heaven is me thinking "if heaven is so much better and you go there when you die, why cant i just kill myself and go to heaven instead of waiting?"

Well I guess the question is how much thought are you talking about? Like, from having this discussion, thoughts of 'me' and 'suicide' obviously go through my head, but it's nothing but the most superficial 'haven't thought of that and wouldn't do that.'

No, I've found myself to be generally trustworthy and with decent memory.

Thich Quang Duc

I think a better starting question is "why do we label anyone with a mental disorder?"

I think you will find that most of the arguments you can come up with against classification of suicidal people as mentally ill, can be used against such classifications in general.

There are however, different approaches. Psychology vs psychiatry is the most classic one. Psychiatry assuming that your body malfunctions when you have mental disorder, whereas psychology usually goes no further than saying it functions differently.

Of course you would say this, as you can't know what you have forgot. Today on the drive to uni I had a flash of what would happen if I went straight into an oncoming truck, I would have forgot this had it not reminded me of this thread. How much of your thoughts do you believe you remember?



Ah interesting, I forgot about suicide bombers also, but the OP did mention about omitting religion.

suicide for a political cause

I guess subjectively I could class it as mental illness, but it would be difficult.

Maybe this is an issue of understanding the actual question. I did not take "having thought about suicide or what it would be like or what would happen" to include such thoughts as the one you mentioned above. To me, that is a passing thought about a car crash that happens to leave you dead. If the thought doesn't contain the goal of killing yourself, and/or it doesn't consider the implications of you then being dead, then I don't consider it to be what Ryan was talking about.

Maybe Ryan can clarify if it really matters, but at the least I've explained my interpretation which is what led to my response, so you (hopefully) see where I'm coming from.

I think it would be a perversion of the term 'mental illness' to classify such actions as stemming from mental illness. I do agree that otherwise, basically any non-elderly, non-terminal, and non-[in constant unfixable pain] person that wants to commit suicide is mentally ill. I think the value is recognizing that exceptions exist is that it reminds us to examine the 'why' and try to understand the thought process and situation instead of just focusing on the the 'what.'

so me thinking about turning into an oncoming truck is not a suicidal thought.. what are the implications of me being dead? For me, there likely aren't any, bit I suppose I thought it to get some kind of rush from imagining how that would feel. I think you are associating suicide with thinking about the negative implications of staying alive. To derail, does this 'understanding' also apply when I asked if you have ever 'liked a girl'?

Ok well now I just see that you have said you haver never disliked life to a great amount. Enough to desire death. You can do this without thinking about suicide btw, suicide is a behaviour or an action.



Well, this is all good but perhaps the monk did have a diagnosable illness we do not know about (is it normal/healthy for a mind to want to die- before mating or certain age when healthy). Same goes for al quada suicide bombers, isn't part of the reasons they do this delusion? (72 virgins is it?). Maybe we could invent a new mental illness for this. (I am agreeing with you here btw)

If your thought is just about making a big crash and you aren't considering that you would die, then no, it's not a thought about suicide.

I think the thought needs to be held to some degree to count. I mean, clearly from reading this thread I have tried to think if I ever thought of suicide. I thought, "did I ever think of stabbing myself?" etc, but holding the thought no stronger than that I don't see how it should qualify.

I am not at all talking about associating suicide with escaping from the negatives of life. It's certainly one possible thought you could have that would qualify, but it's not necessary.

As for your derail, I don't understand what you mean.

I don't know anything about the monk or his mental state. I was merely pointing out a possibility for suicide not associated with mental illness.

Why would you want to invent a new mental illness for this? We don't make up diseases for the sake of it or just to characterize a behavior that we feel is abnormal.

of course I die (and I know it) its a ****ing truck coming the other way!

A thought is a thought, doesn't matter how long you contemplate it, different people would need to contemplate for different lengths of time and strengths before going through with it. This probably relates to mental illness, people having no control and behave instantly irrationally, or behave without rationalising. Is illness just the same as saying , 'lower capability of function'?

Agree, but what else is there? Only the aftermath of death? I'm struggling to find how this would occur without religious belief. The example you gave the monk did it on behalf of Buddhism. Got another?

The reason I said that you probably don't rmemeber your thoughts was because it reminded me of when I asked if you have ever 'liked a girl' and you claimed, no, never. I don't remember homosexual thoughts but I know they fleetingly pass through un noticed and are immediately suppressed/forgotten



If you don't know he had a mental illness or not then you cannot say it is not associated. Think about someone committing suicide because he believes that everyone would benefit with his death, a part of society would benefit and so maybe wants him to die, it is political and I would define this as being mentally ill.

Death without no sign of a physical illness, leaves a mental cause. Death is pretty unhealthy imo. If someone claims religion caused them to murder someone, 'satan told them' they would be mentally ill, there should be some imaginative delusional influence but when religion causes them to murder themselves, then it is different?

'death by belief' maybe some beliefs should be classed as illnesses. They could be treated.

And if my thought of the situation ends pretty much with the crash and doesn't reach the point of me dying, it's a thought that has nothing to do with suicide. Which is what I've been trying to say.

I'm talking about the depth of the thought, not the length of time it's held.

You can consider what happens to other people. You can think about the finality of death. You can think about the positives you'll also be missing.

The monk did it to protest the persecution of the Buddhists. I'm sure he was thinking of the impact this would have on the situation.

My answer's still no.

I was using him as an example of a suicide that could be not associated with mental illness. Of course I can't say anything about him in particular, but I can use him to demonstrate the concept.

On what grounds are you calling such a political statement a mental illness? Death doesn't have to be the result of either a physical or mental illness. I don't see what you see as the purpose of medicine/calling things mental illness. How do you think we should determine what is a mental illness?

If someone thought Satan was telling them to do anything, we would call them mentally ill, so I don't see what you're getting at.

: / I doubt this is ever going to happen. How could you not associate head on collision into a truck with death...

This makes me think, suicidal thought is thoughts of committing suicidal behaviours, thinking of death is just a philosophy, something interesting you can think about without having no intention of death



: /







What's so different to someone else setting themselves on fire? How does committing suicide ever have any kind of perceived gain, without the religious belief of after life? Its delusional. He could have had a mental illness, all this meditative practice, religion, even thai chi has been associated with developing mental illnesses or at least abnormality. Meditation for sure alters the brain state and changes world view. I thought about Hitler, his suicide was fairly rational, his future life would have been terrible for him, but I can't really call him sane. That monk is rather hypocritical, his ego must have been very large to want to do such a thing. Why did he do it and not one of the other monks?


The thing is you could say there are social causes, but these social causes are resulting in a deterioration of mental health. Going bankrupt, losing girlfriend, w/e The only exception I can think of aside from murder/accident of a cause of death non physical or mental, is like dieng naturally in sleep with a asmile on your face after seeing your grandchildren grow up.



It is a belief, the monk killed on behalf of a belief. What is the difference between satans voice in someone, and the voice which says the monk should suicide? The monk has rationalised it? Its a different tone? Its language like 'I should kill myself; opposed to the voice 'kill yourself' ??

Because if I'm thinking about it, I'm thinking about a big crash and all the things I could mess up on the road, not about dying. It's very much possible.

You can't think of a perceived gain? Didn't I already link to that monk that committed suicide for political reasons? There need not be a religious purpose involved.

There is no evidence that I've seen that this guy had a mental illness. The meditation and thai chi do not in any way point towards mental illness. I have no idea how you are suggesting otherwise. I can see even less how you can think he was egotistical -- he gave his life for a cause he believed in. It's hard to be more selfless than that.

If the monk thought it was someone else's voice, that's an indication that he's lost touch with reality and suggests mental illness. But having thoughts of suicide that you recognize as your own thoughts isn't diagnostic in itself.

If you still disagree, then I would suggest answering something I asked in my last post: "I don't see what you see as the purpose of medicine/calling things mental illness. How do you think we should determine what is a mental illness?"

Pretty sure tons of people who kill themselves because of financial stress or marital problems or both are not mentally ill. If you are a degen gambler for example, your gambling may be an illness, but killing yourself because you can't pay your bookie and will be forced to live in a car for the foreseeable future is not unreasonable.

C'mon now these examples are terrible. Depression is a mental illness. So is anxiety. Poor mental health does not have to be chronic or have physcial problems with the brain for it to be an illness.

You're begging the question, are these people clinically depressed or are their external circumstances bad enough that for them risking more life is not worthwhile?

This is not the thought I had. The thought was actually experiencing the process of having a truck crush through me. It is rather exhilarating in a strange way.



Sorry how does he gain once he dies? His only gain is the thought before death that he is some kind of marter (how you spell that)



omg. Look it up. And of course it is egotistical, he did in for the benefit of an audience... egotistical does not necessarily relate to arrogance or narcissism.



You didn't answer my question. Simply because something takes a 1st or 3rd person perspective does not mean a thought is healthy or not. I often talk to myself in 3rd perspective, I assume most people do. Everyone has alter egos, heck even my real name is one.

I'll answer this properly later. For now I am guessing my answer is too broad. Reduced function, irrationality, chemical imbalance, all relative to what is considered healthy within the environment.

the topic is so wide It is hard to pinpoint a simple answer with definable borders. Suicide is well into the realm of mental illness. Religion is a strange grey area.